Ran into a snag updating climate control buttons to 1987+

A

aarpcard

True Classic
So this might be a weird one. Hopefully I'm just missing something obvious.

I greatly prefer the look of the round '87+ Climate Control buttons over the older square buttons. So I bought a set and '87+ climate control faceplate thinking it'd be an easy swap - it doesn't seem to be.

Hopefully the pictures are clear enough for you all to get an idea of what is going on. The round '87+ buttons are considerably longer than the older square buttons and they attach to the ganged switch a little lower. As a result they sit farther forward and lower than the square buttons. Because they sit lower, when a button is pushed to the "on" position, the bottom of the button interferes with the bottom of the black plastic ganged switch enclosure, which angles the button upwards. Look at the "Def" button in the below pic as an example.

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Also, the '87+ faceplate has extruded circular guides on the rear for the buttons which makes it impossible to seat the faceplate with the buttons in their current configuration. See below two pictures. The red circle highlights one of the guides from the side.

20181009_185004_e.jpg


20181009_185019.jpg

So I'm missing something here. I believe either the AC combination switch needs to move backwards, or perhaps the '87+ uses a different radio/climate control/clock frame, combination switch, or something else. MWB lists both of those parts as being compatible with all years from 79 on.

Anyone have any tips? Has anyone done this button swap in the past? Tomorrow I'm planning on tearing this all apart to see if there is a way to mount the combination switch farther back - I want to avoid hacking things. . .
 
Hmmm. This doesn’t bode well for me going the opposite way, I prefer the square buttons versus the round buttons and bought a set up from Hussein to make the change.

I haven’t had time to take any of that apart so I can’t offer anything, my apologies.
 
If you can wait awhile, I will be removing mine eventually (87 control panel) :D

kmead said:
Hmmm. This doesn’t bode well for me going the opposite way, I prefer the square buttons versus the round buttons and bought a set up from Hussein to make the change.

I haven’t had time to take any of that apart so I can’t offer anything, my apologies.
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You got the whole assembly - he is fitting the late buttons & faceplate....
 
Huey said:
The whole unit sits back in further on an '87, evidently. Here are photos of mine.

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View attachment 16000

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Thanks for the pics! Looks like the combination switch is mounted maybe 1" or so farther back and the plastic housing for the switch is slightly different. I've had the whole assembly apart before and it isn't obvious to me how moving it back is accomplished (but that was many months ago so it's not fresh in my head); I don't remember there being any clearance behind the vacuum line connector on the back of the combination switch. Hopefully the solution will present itself tomorrow. I'd be OK with drilling new mounting holes - just want to maintain the ability to reverse the change if I felt like it.
 
Couple of thoughts:

1. What about getting someone who does 3D printing to cook up a set of buttons that have the round look but would fit the existing control head? Would you need a new fascia or would the later one with round holes fit if the buttons could be made to mate up?


2. The "dish" surrounding the peanut bulb that backlights the fan speed numbers---while you have the face plate off, paint that gloss white for a more even and brighter backlighting effect. And pop in an LED bulb, too.
 
aarpcard said:
I'd be OK with drilling new mounting holes - just want to maintain the ability to reverse the change if I felt like it.
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I've been considering a related (but different) mod; I'd like to replace the vacuum portion of my '79 AC controls with the earlier mechanical type. The '79 has a combination of mechanical and vacuum actuated heat/air. Vacuum stuff frequently leaks and this single control is the only vacuum operated device on the car (aside from the distributor advance, which will also go away when the aftermarket ECU is installed).
However I fear I will have similar challenges as you are finding. In your case it seems a bit more straightforward than mine. But keep in mind what you said (your quote above); if you get too far into the modifications and it still doesn't work to your satisfaction, then you might find yourself a bit screwed. Too late to turn back and things end up looking all buggered up and not working properly.
Don't get me wrong, I'm certainly not trying to discourage you from attempting this. Afterall I've been outwardly spoken as a huge proponent of doing modifications and making things 'non-stock'. But in my experience having done a lot of modifications, I've found there are certain things that often tend to not end up well. The brittle plastic and weak joints in these mechanisms are very prone to breaking. In my opinion their function was a bit on the border of being acceptable when new, so any damage along the way makes them even worse. Therefore maybe consider if there is another way of doing this without modifying the existing components. Perhaps you can replace the surrounding/related components with the matching later style ones so everything integrates without any mods? Or maybe Dan's suggestion of making new buttons?
Just a little food for thought. I want to see you end up with a successful modification.
 
Dr.Jeff said:
The brittle plastic and weak joints in these mechanisms are very prone to breaking. In my opinion their function was a bit on the border of being acceptable when new, so any damage along the way makes them even worse. Therefore maybe consider if there is another way of doing this without modifying the existing components. Perhaps you can replace the surrounding/related components with the matching later style ones so everything integrates without any mods? Or maybe Dan's suggestion of making new buttons?
Click to expand...

I know what you mean about the brittle plastics - I've been very paranoid about something inadvertantly breaking. It doesn't help that some of the pieces were made to never be removed like the heater valve lever handle and the fan switch handle. Took me about 45 minutes and an assortment of picks to remove them with no damage.

Replacing all incompatible parts with the correct '87+ parts would be ideal . . . unfortunately that in itself seems like a monumental task (unless someone is willing to part with an entire assembly - I'll definitely keep Hussein's offer as an option - thanks @lookforjoe !) due to the relative rarity of the '87+ parts and due to the differences in the two assemblies, other than the buttons and bezel, not being reasily known by me or seemingly the larger community, vendors included.

The 1979-1982 service manual has a fantastic breakdown of the square buttoned assembly on page 50-14. Does anyone know if a 1987+ service manual exists?

ac controls.png


I suspect parts 17 and 4 are different on '87+ cars. If that's the case, I likely won't be modifying them and instead try to source the right parts. However from the diagram, it looks like the combination switch (8) is held in from the bottom with two screws that aren't numbered. I'm hoping it might be sufficient to just relocate those mounting holes on part 17 about 1" farther back. Of course it's all speculation at this point.

Hopefully more clarity will come about with further dissasembly today.

3D printing new buttons is a good idea, so that's an option too. Maybe I could use the printers at work . . . but getting print time for a personal project would be a hard task aw well haha.
 
aarpcard said:
Replacing all incompatible parts with the correct '87+ parts would be ideal . . . unfortunately that in itself seems like a monumental task
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I suspect that might be true, but hopefully someone has a car that is getting parted out. You might get the entire dash/console as a complete assembly and take what you need.
Otherwise, if is isn't a simple relocation of a couple screw holes, etc, then making new 'custom' buttons might be worth the effort. I've come across a couple "engineering" places that can do such jobs. They have the 3D scanners, CAD design software, printers, and skills for such tasks, but it comes at a cost. Or is it possible to use your old buttons and new buttons and combine them into a hybrid design (e.g. cut and glue)?
As I get older and...well I can't say wiser - perhaps more senile or just lazy - I've learned to accept that some little jobs are better left undone. Hopefully you'll find a good solution though.
 
I've never had mine apart other than removing the fascia but from the looks of the diagram above, I think only #8 needs to move back. Without knowing exactly how everything fits or how difficult things are to get to, it seems pretty simple to move it back and make new holes in the #17 part.
 
Huey said:
I think only #8 needs to move back
Click to expand...
Maybe use a spacer (with longer screws) under #8 when remounting it, raising the buttons as needed to prevent the 'tilting' issue. Or will that throw them off from aligning with the facia plate?
 
So I managed to come up with a solution that is acceptable - perhaps even for the long term. @lookforjoe I'll gladly take you up on your offer for your parts when/if the time comes, but of course - I'm not in a hurry.

After taking everything apart, I believe part #8 and #4 are definitely different on '87+ cars. I had to do a little more drilling/shaving than I had hoped, but I'm happy with the end result, didn't break anything in the process, and everything is reversible to the square style buttons with no impact on form/fit/function/aesthetics.

To address how the vacuum connector is held in place, there is a metal bracket (circled in red below) that pushes on the connector presumably to ensure it makes a good seal. The good news is this bracket can be re-positioned about 0.5" farther back or even spun 180 degrees to allow for even more travel. This bracket is adjustable enough to allow for the combination switch to be moved far enough back to accommodate the round buttons without having to modify how the vacuum connector is attached/held in place.

Bracket in stock position:
20181010_175612.jpg


Bracket in back position. Note it can also be rotated 180 degrees for more travel:
20181010_175622.jpg


Next was to deal with the actual positioning of the combination switch. I took some measurements, and mocked everything up, but the switch ended up being too far back after drilling a new set of mounting holes in part #8. It took two more tries to get right. I'm note exactly sure where my initial measurements went wrong. I don't think the two extra sets of holes are anything to worry about. Circled in red below is the final placing of the new mounting holes. They are about 0.5" farther back than the original ones.
20181010_221630.jpg


Next I had to deal with the height issue. The round switches sit a little lower than the square switches. Unfortunately I couldn't add a spacer underneath the combination switch, because then the buttons wouldn't line up with the '87+ faceplate. There was no solution other than to remove the front lip on part #8 which was causing the interference. The picture below shows the lip removed. Fortunately the lip is hidden behind the bezel and doesn't provide any functional support to either button layout. Also note, the picture below was taken when I had the combination switch installed in the farther back set of new mounting holes I drilled. It is sitting on washers to regain the height lost due to the step in part #8. Fortunately, with the final mounting position, which is farther forward, the washers are not needed.
20181010_195436.jpg


Next was to deal with the mounting of part #4. This part houses the diffuser for the light that illuminates the individual buttons when they are pushed in. In order for the diffuser to line up properly with the '87+ buttons, it needed to be mounted about 0.25" forward relative to the combination switch. Interestingly, this part was held in only with plastic clips even though there were mounting holes for screws in both part #4 and the combination switch. I elected to use the mounting holes already in the combination switch, and drill new holes in part #4. The below picture shows the new mounting holes:
20181010_195508.jpg

A little bit of trimming had to be done to part #8 to make it all fit near the plastic clip that hold part #4 in place. Fortunately, no modifications were needed to be done to the clips so there is nothing preventing this setup from being reverted to the old configuration.

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So I put it all together and it still wouldn't work correctly. The buttons were still too far forward by a fraction of an inch. I tried a whole bunch of different configurations. Ultimately, I figured out that the combination switch needed to be mounted precisely where the step down occurs in the base of part #8. There's no practical way to achieve this that didn't require a lot more hacking and effort. Since I needed only a fraction of an inch, I decided to lengthen the guide pin grooves for the buttons on the faceplate by about 0.1 inches. See below:
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And it worked!
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The faceplate sits flush, the buttons articulate with no binding, and I'd argue the whole assembly is held together at least as well as it was original configuration.

The only outstanding issue is that the diffuser in part #4 is obviously not made to work with the round switches. As such I think it's effectiveness will be limited even considering I relocated it to an optimal position. I don't think this can be fixed without obtaining the correct '87+ diffuser . . . which would likely also require the use of the '87+ part #8. I'll find out how well it passes light when I reinstall it in the car tomorrow.

I'll also be cleaning the contacts on the switches and taking Dan's advice and either painting the cone behind the fan level numbers white, or perhaps plating it with aluminum foil . . .
 
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Wow, nice job! Are the words "A.C. control" on the fascia supposed to light up? It looks like there is supposed to be a light behind them but mine does not have one.
 
As far as I can tell, the "A.C. Controls" text is supposed to light up on a stock configuration. Don't know for sure without inspecting the correct year diffuser.

I experiemented a bit with a LED flashlight in place of the stock bulb with the diffuser in it's current position and the "A.C. Controls" text does illuminate. I don't think it will adequately light the buttons though. Since the buttons sit a little lower, I don't think the light pipe has enough vertical depth, if that makes sense.
 
Excellent result. And it looks to be minimally invasive - at least compared to how many of this nature of projects tend to get. Glad you did not listen to my cautionary notes and proceeded with the attempt. :D

For the illumination. Perhaps converting the backlighting to the largest/brightest LED's that will fit may help. Also consider painting the background areas with "chrome" spray paint. It comes in the basic rattle cans from makers like Krylon. I've used it to restore the tail light reflectors on old cars. It isn't the mirror finish of original reflectors but it works very well. Best if used over a smooth black surface, so sometimes painting with a couple coats of gloss black first helps. I've also seen "mirror" paint but never tried it so no idea if it is any good. Not sure how available it is, but might be worth a try also (need to research it first, might not be made for application over plastic).
 
Dr.Jeff said:
Excellent result. And it looks to be minimally invasive - at least compared to how many of this nature of projects tend to get. Glad you did not listen to my cautionary notes and proceeded with the attempt. :D

For the illumination. Perhaps converting the backlighting to the largest/brightest LED's that will fit may help. Also consider painting the background areas with "chrome" spray paint. It comes in the basic rattle cans from makers like Krylon. I've used it to restore the tail light reflectors on old cars. It isn't the mirror finish of original reflectors but it works very well. Best if used over a smooth black surface, so sometimes painting with a couple coats of gloss black first helps. I've also seen "mirror" paint but never tried it so no idea if it is any good. Not sure how available it is, but might be worth a try also (need to research it first, might not be made for application over plastic).
Click to expand...

I did some research on LED replacements for the tiny wedge socket bulbs. I don't really want to alter the stock wiring if it could be helped. LED replacements exist (some even with high lumen ratings) but are expensive (about $11 a piece plus shipping) and generally not stocked. So I gave it a go at making my own.

I used 18mA bright white LED's I had lying around that appear to my eye to be about 2x brighter than the stock incandescent bulbs. I cut two bulbs I had lying around apart and soldered the LED and resistor to their bases. This way I retain the use of the stock bulb socket. Everything was then covered in adhesive shrink. Ended up being roughly the same form factor.

20181011_192252.jpg


Also took everyone's advice and painted the background with chrome spray paint.
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Result:
20181011_203049.jpg


There's not much I can do to get the "A.C Control" text to light up without significantly modifying part #4, so I built a small board with two additional LEDs to light the text.

20181011_212852.jpg


Plastic welded in place:

20181011_213858.jpg


Final Result. I'm happy enough with that to install it back in the car.
IMG_20181011_220000.jpg
 
Very cool work with the LED's. And thanks for sharing the build of it.

I've never attempted to alter an LED or make a board for them. Certainly opens up some possibilities. Although a soldering iron is not my best tool :(
 
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