Roobus's K20A2-Powered LBZ on BaT

[Santa Barbarian]

@Santa Barbarian, have you looked seriously at a 2ZZ? It is a compact engine. It falls a bit short of your desired power, but I have driven a 2ZZ swapped third gen (hairdresser's) MR2. That MR2 is heavier than an X, and I can say that the 2ZZ moved it spiritedly. It might be worth considering if you are willing to compromise on the power a bit. I just replaced the 1ZZ in our Matrix. It uses the same block. I wish I had taken measurements.

Funny you should mention it... as we've contemplated various options I have in fact gravitated toward the 2ZZ. "Eyeballing" it indicates it's in the right size range. Top of head is narrow, despite DOHC (which is an issue with any Ecotec).

Anyway, I'd already reserved one at a local salvage yard. Will pick it up Monday AM and dig in on the measurements.

It was good enough for Lotus back in the day. It's got a great powerband and high redline. Should be short enough to slot into the allowed space. And, we are talking about ideas for the intake, which is the primary likely point of interference. (And the oil filter which we can re-locate.)

I wasn't going to say anything until I had an exemplar in hand to measure from, but you beat me to it.

Once we dig in? I'll start a new thread over in the BUILDs area and we can hash over some mechanical fit issues. Pan and Oil Starvation are oft mentioned problems in comp cars, so we may attempt a dry sump set up too-- and the less-than-useful trunk seems like a great spot for the dry sump system's tank.

Thanks for the affirmation!

 

[Santa Barbarian]

@Santa Barbarian, have you looked seriously at a 2ZZ? It is a compact engine. It falls a bit short of your desired power, but I have driven a 2ZZ swapped third gen (hairdresser's) MR2. That MR2 is heavier than an X, and I can say that the 2ZZ moved it spiritedly. It might be worth considering if you are willing to compromise on the power a bit. I just replaced the 1ZZ in our Matrix. It uses the same block. I wish I had taken measurements.

Hey. Not to beat a dead horse here, but I picked up that 2ZZ yesterday and am trying to figure out if it will fit. The intake has to "go", but we think we've got a solution there. With the accessories and intake not a consideration? I measure it to be 18.5" from the bell-housing surface to the front edge of the crank pulley.

Across the main part of the case, it's also relatively "thin" with only about 10.5" for the primary case-- and thermostat housing and water pump mount protrudes a bit, but even worst case I think it slides in a with minimal cut-and-trim.

Off-hand, do you know what the inside diameter is on the FIAT X1/9 transmission bell-housing? The Toyota flywheel and pressure plate are smaller than I'd remembered, but they do contain a 210mm clutch. The nice thing in Toyota-land, of course, is that there's a world of opportunities in various friction-disks and flywheel combos.

Thanks for suggesting it. I like a bunch of things about this solution.

 

[rx1900]

Hey. Not to beat a dead horse here, but I picked up that 2ZZ yesterday and am trying to figure out if it will fit. The intake has to "go", but we think we've got a solution there. With the accessories and intake not a consideration? I measure it to be 18.5" from the bell-housing surface to the front edge of the crank pulley.

Across the main part of the case, it's also relatively "thin" with only about 10.5" for the primary case-- and thermostat housing and water pump mount protrudes a bit, but even worst case I think it slides in a with minimal cut-and-trim.

Off-hand, do you know what the inside diameter is on the FIAT X1/9 transmission bell-housing? The Toyota flywheel and pressure plate are smaller than I'd remembered, but they do contain a 210mm clutch. The nice thing in Toyota-land, of course, is that there's a world of opportunities in various friction-disks and flywheel combos.

Thanks for suggesting it. I like a bunch of things about this solution.

18.5" is excellent. That is about exactly what I measure the X1/9 1500 engine to be.

Just what length do you measure the 2ZZ tranny to be ? You will likely find that - and the size/shape of it - to be more important for it to be able to fit...

And really buddy....I think perhaps it's time for you to start a new "2ZZ engine swap" thread

 

[Santa Barbarian]

And really buddy....I think perhaps it's time for you to start a new "2ZZ engine swap" thread

Your point is well-taken. As soon as I get a transmission in hand, I'll start a new thread over there.

I don't have that transmission length measurement quite yet. From photos, it appears to be about 14" for the 6-speed.
I can't tell if the 5-speed (which also mates up, but I figure the extra cog is an extra benefit of the cost of doing this.) is any shorter, although it has a narrower case at The Snout.

I measure the 2ZZ's starter ring gear to be about 11" across-- if we tried to use the FIAT transmission with the 2ZZ flywheel and pressure plate (and correct friction disk, which we can source from Sachs) do you have any idea whether the FIAT bell-housing will clear that diameter flywheel-ring_gear?

Thanks!

 

[rx1900]

if we tried to use the FIAT transmission with the 2ZZ flywheel and pressure plate

Oh boy......I reckon that would not go well

First off....the Fiat tranny seems to have troubles with 75 hp.....after all it was designed for 1116cc 55 hp. I reckon 190 hp would be asking for trouble.....

And ...think about it......the starter kinda goes with the tranny.....you would have to somehow machine the 2ZZ flywheel to accept a Fiat ring gear and use the Fiat starter. .Dont know if that is even possible. And then would the Fiat starter even clear the 2ZZ block ? And if the Fiat bellhousing would even clear all the 2ZZ bits ? Or somehow figure out how to use the 2ZZ starter with the Fiat tranny. And if the Fiat release bearing would work with the 2ZZ pressure plate ?

And...the hassle and expense of having an adapter plate made to mate the Fiat tranny to the 2ZZ engine...

and......

 

[Santa Barbarian]

Oh boy......I reckon that would not go well

First off....the Fiat tranny seems to have troubles with 75 hp.....after all it was designed for 1116cc 55 hp. I reckon 190 hp would be asking for trouble.....

And ...think about it......the starter kinda goes with the tranny.....you would have to somehow machine the 2ZZ flywheel to accept a Fiat ring gear and use the Fiat starter. .Dont know if that is even possible. And then would the Fiat starter even clear the 2ZZ block ? And if the Fiat bellhousing would even clear all the 2ZZ bits ? Or somehow figure out how to use the 2ZZ starter with the Fiat tranny. And if the Fiat release bearing would work with the 2ZZ pressure plate ? And.....

Yeah, I can't argue on the transmission-- the other X1/9 "roller" laying here actually doesn't even roll, being caught in the famous "jammed between multiple gears" state of non-movability.
So, if the consensus view is that the FIAT box is power constrained, that's probably the end of story (although the 2ZZ isn't actually that high a torque engine-- but with the VVT it makes its torque most of the way to an 8200 RPM redline, being basically a Yamaha design.).

As for the starter-ring_gear consideration? I didn't explain, and that's my fault, that the Toyota set-up uses an engine mounted starter, which would engage with all manner of Toyota 1ZZ/2ZZ flywheels (which use an integrated ring gear). I've already got the Toyota flywheel and pressure plate loose-mounted and a 17-spline 0.75"-shaft'd friction-disk compatible with the FIAT identified. The Toyota parts bin is very, very deep and starters, clutch assemblies and flywheels are readily available. And cheap. Much more so than finding old FIAT parts, BTW.

FIAT, kindly, also apparently doesn't use or require a pilot bearing so even that headache is already treated with Tylenol.

So, we'd basically be down to figuring out how to mount-and-align the FIAT bell-housing onto the Toyota block. Even this is made easier by the "minimalist" nature of the Toyota mounting surfaces, absent the two primary M10s at the top of the block, everything else is accessible-from-the-back-- which would give us several options to machine-align-mate-fasten the two components in correct alignment. Assuming of course that the FIAT-bell would clear the Toyota clutch-and-flywheel-and-ring_gear assembly.

I guess I need to go un-mate one of the these FIAT boxes, since I'm curious about it now.
I've got spare Lancia 5-speeds I could look at too, I suppose.

Thanks!

 

[Bobkat]

If you want 205HP out of a NA 20V 1.8, sparing expense is not an option.

Certainly if the build is to be no-cut or, let's say "minimally invasive," then turbocharging becomes difficult. And all of the natively 200HP NA options also involve cutting.

@Santa Barbarian, have you looked seriously at a 2ZZ? It is a compact engine. It falls a bit short of your desired power, but I have driven a 2ZZ swapped third gen (hairdresser's) MR2. That MR2 is heavier than an X, and I can say that the 2ZZ moved it spiritedly. It might be worth considering if you are willing to compromise on the power a bit. I just replaced the 1ZZ in our Matrix. It uses the same block. I wish I had taken measurements.

best source in NA to find one of these 2ZZ motors? I have the 07K and K20 on hand but should maybe get one of these to have on hand for scanning etc. Looks like a compact package.

 

[Santa Barbarian]

best source in NA to find one of these 2ZZ motors? I have the 07K and K20 on hand but should maybe get one of these to have on hand for scanning etc. Looks like a compact package.

It's one of the shortest I-4 blocks I've found so far. (It's worth noting that the intake is huge, though-- we'll likely do ITBs on a custom set of runners. If you get a look at one, be sure to consider the intake and exhaust routings).

I picked mine up the other day from a local salvage yard, after I found inventory on Car-Part.com
The JDM specialist shops seem to do an active trade in them as well-- NY, TX and SoCal. Those will generally be lower-miles examples-- and often with harness, accessories, transmission and ECU.

I'm surprised at how small that 07K is-- but it's still a bit large for the X1/9's native engine bay. As was the LSJ, LE5, Volvo engines-- we've looked at a number of options.

 

[Bobkat]

It's one of the shortest I-4 blocks I've found so far. (It's worth noting that the intake is huge, though-- we'll likely do ITBs on a custom set of runners. If you get a look at one, be sure to consider the intake and exhaust routings).

I picked mine up the other day from a local salvage yard, after I found inventory on Car-Part.com
The JDM specialist shops seem to do an active trade in them as well-- NY, TX and SoCal. Those will generally be lower-miles examples-- and often with harness, accessories, transmission and ECU.

I'm surprised at how small that 07K is-- but it's still a bit large for the X1/9's native engine bay. As was the LSJ, LE5, Volvo engines-- we've looked at a number of options.

I have ITBs for the 07K. An advantage of the head is that the ports are tilted up slightly so the IBS i have from the BMW V10 will have straight shot for the injectors and the stacks will be almost straight up.

What model of cars did the 2ZZ come in here in North America?

 

[kmead]

I have ITBs for the 07K. An advantage of the head is that the ports are tilted up slightly so the IBS i have from the BMW V10 will have straight shot for the injectors and the stacks will be almost straight up.

What model of cars did the 2ZZ come in here in North America?

Celica, Matrix and Vibe. Two Toyotas and a Pontiac.

The engine bay on those cars is @36” side surface to surface.

This engine is on my list. Others are the twin cam Suzuki engines which grew from the G13B twincam which range from 1.3 to 2.0l

 

[Santa Barbarian]

I have ITBs for the 07K. An advantage of the head is that the ports are tilted up slightly so the IBS i have from the BMW V10 will have straight shot for the injectors and the stacks will be almost straight up.

What model of cars did the 2ZZ come in here in North America?

Celica-GTS
Vibe GT
Matrix XRS

And, I'm getting cross-references to a limited build of a Corolla XRS type thing which had a flavor of 2ZZ and the 6-speed box.
That may have been Canada only.

The "lowest miles" examples all seem to be listed with the JDM importer guys. All the cars are the list were beloved here in North America-- people used 'em as commuters and ran them daily. And never sold 'em. It's hard to find any Matrix owner willing to let go of their car.

 

[kmead]

Celica-GTS
Vibe GT
Matrix XRS

And, I'm getting cross-references to a limited build of a Corolla XRS type thing which had a flavor of 2ZZ and the 6-speed box.
That may have been Canada only.

The "lowest miles" examples all seem to be listed with the JDM importer guys. All the cars are the list were beloved here in North America-- people used 'em as commuters and ran them daily. And never sold 'em. It's hard to find any Matrix owner willing to let go of their car.

I had forgotten about those Corollas. I believe they were 2005 only in the US. Same drivetrain as the Matrix/Vibe twins.

I see the Vibe GTs in my local junk yards with some regularity.

 

[Santa Barbarian]

I had forgotten about those Corollas. I believe they were 2005 only in the US. Same drivetrain as the Matrix/Vibe twins.

I see the Vibe GTs in my local junk yards with some regularity.

Hilarious, isn't it? The power of brand! The Vibe, throughout its life, has always sold in the aftermarket at a huge discount to "The Toyota Version"... despite being the same car, same drivetrain, same factory, same workers, same parts bin.

 

[Santa Barbarian]

The engine bay on those cars is @36” side surface to surface.

This pic gives one a sense of how "skinny" the actual engine is-- without the stock intake and exhaust manifolds.

 

[kmead]

The issues with this engine and the K series is the accessories and the intake with the throttle body location relative to the fuel tank.

The AC compressor is mounted down on the right in this image at the height of the rearward ring structure in the X engine bay. Obviously moving the compressor (or deleting it) would reduce this issue.It may be possible to move it over to where the power steering pump lives on the exhaust side.

The plus is the engine does lean back to assist with clearing the X firewall.



The intake ports do point upward and the injectors mount into the head rather than the manifold so creating a manifold should be reasonable, there is a manifold with ITBs in a side draft application which might be a good starting place to make your own though I don’t know that one needs ITBs. There are versions of the existing manifold which bolt together and might be possible to make a new intermediate runner to bolt the OE plenum to. The OE plenum as some very nice features in it for managing air into the runners.

I will trudge through some of my other notes on this engine as there are some nice manifolds from Skunk as I recall.

 

[Santa Barbarian]

The intake ports do point upward and the injectors mount into the head rather than the manifold so creating a manifold should be reasonable, there is a manifold with ITBs in a side draft application which might be a good starting place to make your own though I don’t know that one needs ITBs. There are versions of the existing manifold which bolt together and might be possible to make a new intermediate runner to bolt the OE plenum to. The OE plenum as some very nice features in it for managing air into the runners.

Yes, the stock intake is huge, and in the wrong place, so that's why our plan would be to take advantage of the native "tilt" of the intake ports (and that the injectors mount directly into the head) and go vertical. There's an interesting overlap (was this accidental? Everything 'up top' is a Yamaha design, keep in mind) with parts available in the Hi-Po motorcycle parts bins too. I'm just working on the drawings for our vertical version-- and have a fab shop standing buy to build it for us.

We're deleting basically everything (water pump has to stay put though), including AC compressor-- and relocating alternator.

We'll also do a dry sump, with the (some say better) 1ZZ pan as a starting point.

I apologize to the Community. This is well past O/T so my next post will be on a new thread. Thanks!

 

[Longitudinal]

best source in NA to find one of these 2ZZ motors? I have the 07K and K20 on hand but should maybe get one of these to have on hand for scanning etc. Looks like a compact package.

You could get a JDM package through any one of a million JDM importers, but a version of the 2ZZ came in the "high performance" Matrix and Vibe cars. There might be others, but I don't know. But I'm sure that the US market engines are not as powerful as the JDM engines. They never are.

 

[Longitudinal]

Thanks for suggesting it. I like a bunch of things about this solution.

No problem. I call dibs on the first drive after you take it around the block once.