<TABLE cellSpacing=1 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD colSpan=2><TABLE width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="PADDING-TOP: 4px" vAlign=top colSpan=2>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]Rust problem<!-- google_ad_section_end -->
[/FONT][FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]October 22 1999 at 12:56 PM[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial][/FONT][/FONT]</TD><TD vAlign=top align=right>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]<SCRIPT language=Javascript> <!-- var n54_em; n54_em = ""; n54_em = n54_em + "g";n54_em = n54_em + "_";n54_em = n54_em + "d";n54_em = n54_em + "e";n54_em = n54_em + "p";n54_em = n54_em + "r";n54_em = n54_em + "e";n54_em = n54_em + "v";n54_em = n54_em + "o";n54_em = n54_em + "i";n54_em = n54_em + "s";n54_em = n54_em + "i";n54_em = n54_em + "n";n54_em = n54_em + "@";n54_em = n54_em + "j";n54_em = n54_em + "p";n54_em = n54_em + "u";n54_em = n54_em + "s";n54_em = n54_em + ".";n54_em = n54_em + "c";n54_em = n54_em + "o";n54_em = n54_em + "m"; document.write("Gilles"); // --> </SCRIPT>Gilles <NOSCRIPT> Gilles </NOSCRIPT> [/FONT]</TD></TR><TR><TD vAlign=bottom colSpan=3><HR></TD></TR><TR><TD colSpan=3>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]<!-- google_ad_section_start -->Hi Doc:
I am addressing this message to you, because you seem to have good (?) experience in this topic.
I had located an '74 nearby, last registered in '87 the car is in generaly good shape.
Except to the fact, that the bottom of the widsield it's completely rusted, you could actually see through the metal (a couple of big holes)
The question here is: If you remove the windshield
how easy (or better yet) how expensive will be to replace the sheet metal (at the body shop), for the entire bottom of the windshield (from side to side). Could this be a structural concern?
The rest of the car is in great shape, and perhaps I may be able to get it for a little money (I hope so), At least the owner's wife wants to get rid of it (obviously), I will be able to speak with the owner tomorrow, that's why I am asking for your support. Thanks and best regards, Gilles
<!-- google_ad_section_end -->
[/FONT]</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><TABLE cellPadding=4 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD vAlign=top noWrap align=left>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial] [/FONT]</TD><TD vAlign=top align=right>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]
[/FONT]</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></TD></TR><TR><TD>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]Author[/FONT]</TD><TD>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]Reply[/FONT]</TD></TR><TR><TD vAlign=top noWrap width="17.9%">[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]Mac[/FONT]
[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial][/FONT]</TD><TD style="PADDING-LEFT: 15px" vAlign=top><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=1 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD align=left>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]<!-- google_ad_section_start -->sounds like my '75 right now <nt><!-- google_ad_section_end -->
[/FONT][FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial][/FONT]</TD><TD vAlign=top align=right>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]October 22 1999, 8:48 PM [/FONT]</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=1 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="PADDING-LEFT: 15px">
[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]<!-- google_ad_section_start --><nt> = no text
-Mac.
<!-- google_ad_section_end -->
[/FONT]</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=4 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD vAlign=top align=left>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial] [/FONT]</TD><TD vAlign=top noWrap align=right>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]
[/FONT]</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></TD></TR><TR><TD vAlign=top noWrap width="17.9%">[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]<SCRIPT language=Javascript> <!-- var n54_em; n54_em = ""; n54_em = n54_em + "s";n54_em = n54_em + "t";n54_em = n54_em + "e";n54_em = n54_em + "v";n54_em = n54_em + "e";n54_em = n54_em + "n";n54_em = n54_em + "@";n54_em = n54_em + "c";n54_em = n54_em + "n";n54_em = n54_em + "s";n54_em = n54_em + "v";n54_em = n54_em + "a";n54_em = n54_em + "x";n54_em = n54_em + ".";n54_em = n54_em + "a";n54_em = n54_em + "l";n54_em = n54_em + "b";n54_em = n54_em + "a";n54_em = n54_em + "n";n54_em = n54_em + "y";n54_em = n54_em + ".";n54_em = n54_em + "e";n54_em = n54_em + "d";n54_em = n54_em + "u"; document.write("Doc"); // --> </SCRIPT>Doc <NOSCRIPT> Doc </NOSCRIPT>[/FONT]
[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial][/FONT]</TD><TD style="PADDING-LEFT: 15px" vAlign=top><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=1 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD align=left>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]<!-- google_ad_section_start -->Rust repair...<!-- google_ad_section_end -->
[/FONT][FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial][/FONT]</TD><TD vAlign=top align=right>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]October 24 1999, 6:53 PM [/FONT]</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=1 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="PADDING-LEFT: 15px">
[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]<!-- google_ad_section_start -->>I am addressing this message to you, because you >seem to have good (?) experience in this
>topic.
Wow... I feel like Dear Abby or something
Good experience... I dunno... I have a couple of restorations of older domestic (40's and 50's) cars under my belt now, so I have dealt with a good bit of rust... I've done all of the body work, save for some of the welding and the final paint myself, and had a good bit of luck with it. However, take all of that with a grain of salt, as the older American cars were made with VERY thick and stress tolerant metals compared to cars of recent vintage. As you may or may not know, this is my first X (well, actually my second... I had one briefly in high school that gave up the ghost to rusted strut mounts... if only I knew then what I know now!), so my experience with them is limited, but I'll try my best
>Except to the fact, that the bottom of the >widsield it's completely rusted, you could >actually see through the metal (a couple of big >holes)
"Big" is relative... the size of a dime, the size of a quarter, or put-your-fist-through-it big?
>The question here is: If you remove the >windshield how easy (or better yet) how expensive >will be to replace the sheet metal (at the body
>shop), for the entire bottom of the >windshield (from side to side). Could this be a >structural concern?
Expense is a tough one, since I do the work myself, it's only materials, which are relatively cheap.
Difficulty, a different story entirely. There is a lot of wiring that runs near the firewall, as well as the brakelines (assuming that the 74 is set up the same as my 83). You would need to remove or isolate these prior to any welding... even with heat shield putty in place, we are only taking about plastic/nylon here, which has a relatively low melting point.
It can certainly be done, and probably without HUGE expense, but if you can't do it yourself, you might end up better off financially in the long run if you find a car in better shape (unless the price is TOO good to pass up).
Removal of the windshield itself is frighteningly easy... the chrome trim is simply glued on, and any good glass shop can have the seal popped and the window out in a matter of minutes.
A caveat tho - given that it is a rust through, and not just surface rust (which mine was), give the whole car a very careful look. Bring a magnet or two to search for bondo... if it rusted through there, it has probably got cancer elsewhere too. From my car, I can suggest that you look at the following areas:
1) The trunk - particularly the "pockets" on either side of the rear shelf... not hard to fix (but it won't be pretty), but can be very telling of the condition of the whole car. In my case, water collected, and rotted it from the inside out on both sides.
2) the "shelf" that the washer bottle sits on - water can collect here and rust it out.
3) Low on the front fenders (near the doors). A pain in the ass to fix, and most folks (read: shops) are likely to blast and Bondo it rather than fix it properly.
4) The floor pans... both around the drain holes in the foot box (again, don't know if the 74 has these) and around the edge by the door sill. In my case, this area was severely rotten on both sides, and I basically fabricated about 50% of the pan to fix it... the PO had simply pulled back the carpet and laid a piece of masonite in! This of course probably made it even worse, as the masonite soaked up water and held it right against the already rusting metal!
Structurally, I'm not sure. A good weld will certainly be more than enough to hold up the windshield, but I would hate to have the weld give in a rollover (though I think an original would go just as easily... hey, gotta cover my butt in case someone goes back to the archives after taking my advice and having an accident!
Hope this helps, and moreover, I hope this didn't turn you off to the car!
Doc
PS: Another caveat... we in the Northeast have to deal with rust... lots and lots of rust becuase of all the salt used on the roads. For the winter, I take all of my cars except the Mercedes (my daily driver) off the road. I don't buy a winter beater only because the M has a plastic underbody, and how many rusty M's do you see anyway? You r experiences elsewhere in the country are certainly different, as you don't generally get a much snow as we do.
<!-- google_ad_section_end -->
[/FONT]</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=4 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD vAlign=top align=left>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial] [/FONT]</TD><TD vAlign=top noWrap align=right>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]
[/FONT]</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></TD></TR><TR><TD vAlign=top noWrap width="17.9%">[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]Mac[/FONT]
[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial][/FONT]</TD><TD style="PADDING-LEFT: 30px" vAlign=top><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=1 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD align=left>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]<!-- google_ad_section_start -->Good stuff!<!-- google_ad_section_end -->
[/FONT][FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial][/FONT]</TD><TD vAlign=top align=right>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]October 25 1999, 11:39 AM [/FONT]</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=1 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="PADDING-LEFT: 30px">
[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]<!-- google_ad_section_start -->Thank GOD we don't use salt on our roads in the winter here in the Pacific Northwest! The winters can be severe relatively speaking, but never do we use salt. Just plows and sand/gravel. We do get lots of rain here, but it is primarily fresh water rain (knock on wood - let's hope it's always that way!) and so it acts more as a perpetual car wash than a rusting agent. I'm not saying Fiats don't rust here, just not quite so rapidly. This, I suspect, is why there are so many restorable parts cars in our region.
BTW, Good Advice Doc! Dear Abby indeed! -Mac.
<!-- google_ad_section_end -->
[/FONT]</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=4 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD vAlign=top align=left>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial] [/FONT]</TD><TD vAlign=top noWrap align=right>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]
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[/FONT][FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]October 22 1999 at 12:56 PM[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial][/FONT][/FONT]</TD><TD vAlign=top align=right>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]<SCRIPT language=Javascript> <!-- var n54_em; n54_em = ""; n54_em = n54_em + "g";n54_em = n54_em + "_";n54_em = n54_em + "d";n54_em = n54_em + "e";n54_em = n54_em + "p";n54_em = n54_em + "r";n54_em = n54_em + "e";n54_em = n54_em + "v";n54_em = n54_em + "o";n54_em = n54_em + "i";n54_em = n54_em + "s";n54_em = n54_em + "i";n54_em = n54_em + "n";n54_em = n54_em + "@";n54_em = n54_em + "j";n54_em = n54_em + "p";n54_em = n54_em + "u";n54_em = n54_em + "s";n54_em = n54_em + ".";n54_em = n54_em + "c";n54_em = n54_em + "o";n54_em = n54_em + "m"; document.write("Gilles"); // --> </SCRIPT>Gilles <NOSCRIPT> Gilles </NOSCRIPT> [/FONT]</TD></TR><TR><TD vAlign=bottom colSpan=3><HR></TD></TR><TR><TD colSpan=3>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]<!-- google_ad_section_start -->Hi Doc:
I am addressing this message to you, because you seem to have good (?) experience in this topic.
I had located an '74 nearby, last registered in '87 the car is in generaly good shape.
Except to the fact, that the bottom of the widsield it's completely rusted, you could actually see through the metal (a couple of big holes)
The question here is: If you remove the windshield
how easy (or better yet) how expensive will be to replace the sheet metal (at the body shop), for the entire bottom of the windshield (from side to side). Could this be a structural concern?
The rest of the car is in great shape, and perhaps I may be able to get it for a little money (I hope so), At least the owner's wife wants to get rid of it (obviously), I will be able to speak with the owner tomorrow, that's why I am asking for your support. Thanks and best regards, Gilles
<!-- google_ad_section_end -->
[/FONT]</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><TABLE cellPadding=4 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD vAlign=top noWrap align=left>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial] [/FONT]</TD><TD vAlign=top align=right>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]
[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial][/FONT]</TD><TD style="PADDING-LEFT: 15px" vAlign=top><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=1 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD align=left>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]<!-- google_ad_section_start -->sounds like my '75 right now <nt><!-- google_ad_section_end -->
[/FONT][FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial][/FONT]</TD><TD vAlign=top align=right>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]October 22 1999, 8:48 PM [/FONT]</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=1 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="PADDING-LEFT: 15px">
[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]<!-- google_ad_section_start --><nt> = no text
-Mac.
<!-- google_ad_section_end -->
[/FONT]</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=4 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD vAlign=top align=left>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial] [/FONT]</TD><TD vAlign=top noWrap align=right>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]
[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial][/FONT]</TD><TD style="PADDING-LEFT: 15px" vAlign=top><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=1 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD align=left>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]<!-- google_ad_section_start -->Rust repair...<!-- google_ad_section_end -->
[/FONT][FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial][/FONT]</TD><TD vAlign=top align=right>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]October 24 1999, 6:53 PM [/FONT]</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=1 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="PADDING-LEFT: 15px">
[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]<!-- google_ad_section_start -->>I am addressing this message to you, because you >seem to have good (?) experience in this
>topic.
Wow... I feel like Dear Abby or something
Good experience... I dunno... I have a couple of restorations of older domestic (40's and 50's) cars under my belt now, so I have dealt with a good bit of rust... I've done all of the body work, save for some of the welding and the final paint myself, and had a good bit of luck with it. However, take all of that with a grain of salt, as the older American cars were made with VERY thick and stress tolerant metals compared to cars of recent vintage. As you may or may not know, this is my first X (well, actually my second... I had one briefly in high school that gave up the ghost to rusted strut mounts... if only I knew then what I know now!), so my experience with them is limited, but I'll try my best
>Except to the fact, that the bottom of the >widsield it's completely rusted, you could >actually see through the metal (a couple of big >holes)
"Big" is relative... the size of a dime, the size of a quarter, or put-your-fist-through-it big?
>The question here is: If you remove the >windshield how easy (or better yet) how expensive >will be to replace the sheet metal (at the body
>shop), for the entire bottom of the >windshield (from side to side). Could this be a >structural concern?
Expense is a tough one, since I do the work myself, it's only materials, which are relatively cheap.
Difficulty, a different story entirely. There is a lot of wiring that runs near the firewall, as well as the brakelines (assuming that the 74 is set up the same as my 83). You would need to remove or isolate these prior to any welding... even with heat shield putty in place, we are only taking about plastic/nylon here, which has a relatively low melting point.
It can certainly be done, and probably without HUGE expense, but if you can't do it yourself, you might end up better off financially in the long run if you find a car in better shape (unless the price is TOO good to pass up).
Removal of the windshield itself is frighteningly easy... the chrome trim is simply glued on, and any good glass shop can have the seal popped and the window out in a matter of minutes.
A caveat tho - given that it is a rust through, and not just surface rust (which mine was), give the whole car a very careful look. Bring a magnet or two to search for bondo... if it rusted through there, it has probably got cancer elsewhere too. From my car, I can suggest that you look at the following areas:
1) The trunk - particularly the "pockets" on either side of the rear shelf... not hard to fix (but it won't be pretty), but can be very telling of the condition of the whole car. In my case, water collected, and rotted it from the inside out on both sides.
2) the "shelf" that the washer bottle sits on - water can collect here and rust it out.
3) Low on the front fenders (near the doors). A pain in the ass to fix, and most folks (read: shops) are likely to blast and Bondo it rather than fix it properly.
4) The floor pans... both around the drain holes in the foot box (again, don't know if the 74 has these) and around the edge by the door sill. In my case, this area was severely rotten on both sides, and I basically fabricated about 50% of the pan to fix it... the PO had simply pulled back the carpet and laid a piece of masonite in! This of course probably made it even worse, as the masonite soaked up water and held it right against the already rusting metal!
Structurally, I'm not sure. A good weld will certainly be more than enough to hold up the windshield, but I would hate to have the weld give in a rollover (though I think an original would go just as easily... hey, gotta cover my butt in case someone goes back to the archives after taking my advice and having an accident!
Hope this helps, and moreover, I hope this didn't turn you off to the car!
Doc
PS: Another caveat... we in the Northeast have to deal with rust... lots and lots of rust becuase of all the salt used on the roads. For the winter, I take all of my cars except the Mercedes (my daily driver) off the road. I don't buy a winter beater only because the M has a plastic underbody, and how many rusty M's do you see anyway?
You r experiences elsewhere in the country are certainly different, as you don't generally get a much snow as we do.<!-- google_ad_section_end -->
[/FONT]</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=4 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD vAlign=top align=left>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial] [/FONT]</TD><TD vAlign=top noWrap align=right>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]
[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial][/FONT]</TD><TD style="PADDING-LEFT: 30px" vAlign=top><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=1 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD align=left>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]<!-- google_ad_section_start -->Good stuff!<!-- google_ad_section_end -->
[/FONT][FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial][/FONT]</TD><TD vAlign=top align=right>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]October 25 1999, 11:39 AM [/FONT]</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=1 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="PADDING-LEFT: 30px">
[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]<!-- google_ad_section_start -->Thank GOD we don't use salt on our roads in the winter here in the Pacific Northwest! The winters can be severe relatively speaking, but never do we use salt. Just plows and sand/gravel. We do get lots of rain here, but it is primarily fresh water rain (knock on wood - let's hope it's always that way!) and so it acts more as a perpetual car wash than a rusting agent. I'm not saying Fiats don't rust here, just not quite so rapidly. This, I suspect, is why there are so many restorable parts cars in our region.
BTW, Good Advice Doc! Dear Abby indeed!
-Mac.<!-- google_ad_section_end -->
[/FONT]</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=4 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD vAlign=top align=left>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial] [/FONT]</TD><TD vAlign=top noWrap align=right>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]