scorpion driveline into x
- Thread starter spiderrey
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From the Xweb 1.0 archives
Well
I am no Lancia drive line expert, but here is a thread on Wayne's Lancia Beta twin cam conversion. Not sure if that is helpful at all, but there you go:
http://www.network54.com/Forum/12159/message/1175193324
Follow the link in the first post to see Wayne's original thread. He e-mailed me the pictures later and I started a new thread.
Well
I am no Lancia drive line expert, but here is a thread on Wayne's Lancia Beta twin cam conversion. Not sure if that is helpful at all, but there you go:
http://www.network54.com/Forum/12159/message/1175193324
Follow the link in the first post to see Wayne's original thread. He e-mailed me the pictures later and I started a new thread.
John Allen
True Classic
Many have tried, or at least dreamed about this. I can safely say the the hardest part of this coversion is the shift linkage. It seems that everyone has a slightly different take on how to get it done.
Mounting the engine/trans is 'easy'. The driver's side rail has to be notched to clear the trans, new mounts have to be made, and a remote oil filter is needed if you don't want to cut a lot. I have seen the waterpump from a Ritmo 130TC used (it includes a mount), but they are too common in the states.
The shifter can be a modified Scorpion (through the firewall), 'under' the bellhousing rod, or cable..... I have only personally seen a modified Scorp.... There were pretty good photos of a Faran conversion somewhere here on the forum, but all of the others seem to be a mystery. If someone were to post GOOD photos/diagrams of the shifter mech, it would really help people like you.
Most people consider this swap too difficult for the rewards. The Scorpion is a totally different animal and the handling of the X would be completely different.
Also keep in mind that the Scorpion is different than the Beta in several subtle ways. The later Betas have equal length halfshafts (you would use 2 short 1500 X axles) while the Scorp does not (would require 1 custom axle in an X). The shift mech is also different including the shift rod coming out the TOP of the trans and the Beta used a cable clutch release.
If you try to use the Beta FI system, you will have to modify the firewall (as well if you use dual carbs).
Do you have a supply of Scorpion parts already? If you are still interested in this conversion, I have a lot of parts.
Mounting the engine/trans is 'easy'. The driver's side rail has to be notched to clear the trans, new mounts have to be made, and a remote oil filter is needed if you don't want to cut a lot. I have seen the waterpump from a Ritmo 130TC used (it includes a mount), but they are too common in the states.
The shifter can be a modified Scorpion (through the firewall), 'under' the bellhousing rod, or cable..... I have only personally seen a modified Scorp.... There were pretty good photos of a Faran conversion somewhere here on the forum, but all of the others seem to be a mystery. If someone were to post GOOD photos/diagrams of the shifter mech, it would really help people like you.
Most people consider this swap too difficult for the rewards. The Scorpion is a totally different animal and the handling of the X would be completely different.
Also keep in mind that the Scorpion is different than the Beta in several subtle ways. The later Betas have equal length halfshafts (you would use 2 short 1500 X axles) while the Scorp does not (would require 1 custom axle in an X). The shift mech is also different including the shift rod coming out the TOP of the trans and the Beta used a cable clutch release.
If you try to use the Beta FI system, you will have to modify the firewall (as well if you use dual carbs).
Do you have a supply of Scorpion parts already? If you are still interested in this conversion, I have a lot of parts.
John Allen
True Classic
well you have a most of the stuff, but some you may not need. The axles will be too long in an X (the Scorp is about 4 in wider in track) and the mounts may not be of much use (it would be better to design something different). Keep them in case you can use them, but don't be forced into using them if you find something better (the Scorp engine bay is also much 'deeper' front to back so the mounts would foul the front crossmember)
John Allen
True Classic
The newer 16valve engines have a different drainback system. You can modify the 8valve drainbacks to accomodate different tilts.
There used to be an X member named Ash in Australia. His engine was a twincam on a 130 transaxle (sits straight up - no tilt) and used the mount on the waterpump. Keep in mind that if your waterpump fails, you may have a hard time finding one! Ash's pictures included a lot of rebuild/teardown photos. These would have been on the old site, I don't know how you would access them now....
Oh, and the 16valve heads are 'reverse flow' - the intake and exhaust sides are swapped (as are later 8valve cars the US didn't get)..... and they need 16valve pistons (of course).
There used to be an X member named Ash in Australia. His engine was a twincam on a 130 transaxle (sits straight up - no tilt) and used the mount on the waterpump. Keep in mind that if your waterpump fails, you may have a hard time finding one! Ash's pictures included a lot of rebuild/teardown photos. These would have been on the old site, I don't know how you would access them now....
Oh, and the 16valve heads are 'reverse flow' - the intake and exhaust sides are swapped (as are later 8valve cars the US didn't get)..... and they need 16valve pistons (of course).
Chris Obert
autocrosser, X driver
scorpion swap
I had a client do this swap about 18-20 years ago. He did a few things to the motor to get some extra power, some even worked. After driving it, or attempting to, he described it as a 'dart flying backwards'.
I am sure with suspension developement time he could have made a nice rocket, but instead he sold it to a Japanese collector.
He did a wonderful job on the conversion, looked factory.
I had a client do this swap about 18-20 years ago. He did a few things to the motor to get some extra power, some even worked. After driving it, or attempting to, he described it as a 'dart flying backwards'.
I am sure with suspension developement time he could have made a nice rocket, but instead he sold it to a Japanese collector.
He did a wonderful job on the conversion, looked factory.
AngeloX19
True Classic
I'll chime in...
Not a Scorpion, but Beta drive train. I spent 3 years on this, but life and the motorcycle got in the way. I also went beyond just swapping in a drive train. I rebuilt everything. Engine, transmission, axles. Built a header, intake manifold, shift linkage, clutch slave bracket and arm, motor mounts, frame work, coolant lines, alternator mount/oil block of plate, etc. I did more than necessary but I wanted the car my way and that’s what I tried to follow. If you have decent fabricating skills, you’ll get through it. Being able to visualize in your head helps – a lot. Before I started I had already determined where I wanted the exhaust to route, where the throttle bodies would be positioned, alternator location, coolant line runs and so on. Steve C. did a really good write up on www.turbo124.com regarding engine layout and orientation and that helped in that once that’s established, everything else is built around it.
Once I rigged my drive train into place with a hoist, you start building mounts (obviously). I went the route of using four mounts similar to the scorpion. This was based on deciding to run shift linkage under the car from photos that I believe were from a Farran. The linkage proved to be the biggest hurdle for me, but in hindsight, asking questions and finding photos got the ideas going. Anyways, 2 mounts were off the sides of the block a la 124 style. None of the beta mounts looked like they were going to work. I found chassis/frame bushings used for a Jaguar that some of the Honda crowd have used to make their own mounts that worked well. I used 3 of those, 2 on the block, and one to bridge the diff to the cross member. The last mount was off the top of the gearbox to the frame rail. I figured that this one’s main function would be to prevent lateral movement (snail mount) so it could be smaller. I made sure to nest the sheet metal on the frame to spread loads After mounts were built, angles and axle play checked, I went to the linkage. That took some trial and error in regards to ratios. I still think I’ll modify a detail or two next winter to either make it more presentable, or define the lateral feel on the shift rod, but for now, and I haven’t missed a shift yet.
The header and exhaust was next up. Pretty straight forward. I knew that I would be cutting out the rear frame rails and that my upper rear cross member was replaced when I went to side draft throttle bodies on the sohc, so I did some frame bracing at this point as well, balancing header routing with the X brace. My goal was to have a decent run of the primaries before any significant turn hoping this would aid scavenging. The intake manifold wasn’t a side draft because the air filter was too large to fit in the spare well and I didn’t want to run without a filter, or using individual socks on the air horns. I also figured that running the alternator on the intake side allowed me more freedom in building the header. From that I just picked an angle that gave me accessibility and the smallest bend. Coolant lines, oil lines, clutch accessories all fell into place from there.
I took the time to weigh as many items as I could during tear down and the buildup. I haven’t had my car on scales yet, so I don’t know for sure what the final weight penalty is, but when I add everything up, drive train, mounts, bracing, anything I could think of, I came up with ~90 lbs. This was for the 1.8. The 2.0 has a heavier block, crank and rods, but the extra torque vs. the 1.8 will offset the weight in a straight line. Handling would be marginally worse. That’s a lot of weight to add to the mid/rear section of an X. But since I said I built this to my liking, I also managed to shed another 65 lbs along the way in frame rails, lighter crank, flywheel, starter, hood, wiring, battery, etc., etc. I can still move the fuel tank to the front if need be, but I’ll wait for now when I’ve driven the car at the limit.
And as everyone has said, don’t bother unless you intend to build up the engine. Even then, 160-190 bhp is what you’ll get. Compared to the Japanese swaps being done, drivability and economy wouldn’t be as good with a twin cam, but it is all Italian:italia:
Not a Scorpion, but Beta drive train. I spent 3 years on this, but life and the motorcycle got in the way. I also went beyond just swapping in a drive train. I rebuilt everything. Engine, transmission, axles. Built a header, intake manifold, shift linkage, clutch slave bracket and arm, motor mounts, frame work, coolant lines, alternator mount/oil block of plate, etc. I did more than necessary but I wanted the car my way and that’s what I tried to follow. If you have decent fabricating skills, you’ll get through it. Being able to visualize in your head helps – a lot. Before I started I had already determined where I wanted the exhaust to route, where the throttle bodies would be positioned, alternator location, coolant line runs and so on. Steve C. did a really good write up on www.turbo124.com regarding engine layout and orientation and that helped in that once that’s established, everything else is built around it.
Once I rigged my drive train into place with a hoist, you start building mounts (obviously). I went the route of using four mounts similar to the scorpion. This was based on deciding to run shift linkage under the car from photos that I believe were from a Farran. The linkage proved to be the biggest hurdle for me, but in hindsight, asking questions and finding photos got the ideas going. Anyways, 2 mounts were off the sides of the block a la 124 style. None of the beta mounts looked like they were going to work. I found chassis/frame bushings used for a Jaguar that some of the Honda crowd have used to make their own mounts that worked well. I used 3 of those, 2 on the block, and one to bridge the diff to the cross member. The last mount was off the top of the gearbox to the frame rail. I figured that this one’s main function would be to prevent lateral movement (snail mount) so it could be smaller. I made sure to nest the sheet metal on the frame to spread loads After mounts were built, angles and axle play checked, I went to the linkage. That took some trial and error in regards to ratios. I still think I’ll modify a detail or two next winter to either make it more presentable, or define the lateral feel on the shift rod, but for now, and I haven’t missed a shift yet.
The header and exhaust was next up. Pretty straight forward. I knew that I would be cutting out the rear frame rails and that my upper rear cross member was replaced when I went to side draft throttle bodies on the sohc, so I did some frame bracing at this point as well, balancing header routing with the X brace. My goal was to have a decent run of the primaries before any significant turn hoping this would aid scavenging. The intake manifold wasn’t a side draft because the air filter was too large to fit in the spare well and I didn’t want to run without a filter, or using individual socks on the air horns. I also figured that running the alternator on the intake side allowed me more freedom in building the header. From that I just picked an angle that gave me accessibility and the smallest bend. Coolant lines, oil lines, clutch accessories all fell into place from there.
I took the time to weigh as many items as I could during tear down and the buildup. I haven’t had my car on scales yet, so I don’t know for sure what the final weight penalty is, but when I add everything up, drive train, mounts, bracing, anything I could think of, I came up with ~90 lbs. This was for the 1.8. The 2.0 has a heavier block, crank and rods, but the extra torque vs. the 1.8 will offset the weight in a straight line. Handling would be marginally worse. That’s a lot of weight to add to the mid/rear section of an X. But since I said I built this to my liking, I also managed to shed another 65 lbs along the way in frame rails, lighter crank, flywheel, starter, hood, wiring, battery, etc., etc. I can still move the fuel tank to the front if need be, but I’ll wait for now when I’ve driven the car at the limit.
And as everyone has said, don’t bother unless you intend to build up the engine. Even then, 160-190 bhp is what you’ll get. Compared to the Japanese swaps being done, drivability and economy wouldn’t be as good with a twin cam, but it is all Italian:italia:
spiderrey
spiderrey
thanx for chiming in Angelo, i know the scorp set up wont compare to a honda swap performance wise. its just something i always wanted to do, my kid thinks its a waste of time. im gonna try it on an 80 that i got for a hundred bucks, so i have nothing to loose really.already have a 74 with a honda sitting in it, with lots a work left, that will be the performer. any pics you could supply would be greatly appreciated. by the way, the scorp set up must be different then the beta set up. this thing only has three mounts. 2 off the tranny, and one ff the alt mounts to the front of the block.
Pete Whitstone
True Classic
I have both a Scorpion and an X1/9...
Let me know if you need me to take pics or dimensions.
Pete
Let me know if you need me to take pics or dimensions.
Pete
AngeloX19
True Classic
There's some photos here http://xwebforums.com/forum/index.php?threads/900/, here http://xwebforums.com/forum/index.php?threads/533and/ here http://xwebforums.com/forum/index.php?threads/485/. The second thread has some of Steve C. photos as well. Let me know if there's something in particluar you want a better photo of.
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