Setting static timing video?

[petex19]

I know there's great written articles on this in this group. For some unknown reason my '84X won't run ( not even a spit or spat), just cranks over coming out of winter storage. Drove it into storage. Carbs are getting fuel, spark at the plug. It's stored in a barn and I found a few wires chewed going to the bosch ignition module. I'm repairing the chewed wires as I find them. I want to go back to the basics and set up static timing from scratch. It's been over ten years since I've done it and my memory isn't what it once was. Any good videos out there showing the process from setting TDC to car running?
Done so far....
Fresh fuel, new spark plugs

 

[kmead]

I know there's great written articles on this in this group. For some unknown reason my '84X won't run ( not even a spit or spat), just cranks over coming out of winter storage. Drove it into storage. Carbs are getting fuel, spark at the plug. It's stored in a barn and I found a few wires chewed going to the bosch ignition module. I'm repairing the chewed wires as I find them. I want to go back to the basics and set up static timing from scratch. It's been over ten years since I've done it and my memory isn't what it once was. Any good videos out there showing the process from setting TDC to car running?
Done so far....
Fresh fuel, new spark plugs

This post has been edited for accuracy and a better explanation with the assistance or RX1900 along with his excellent image of the cap.

The mechanical timing hasn’t changed on the engine. The ignition timing could have if you have moved the distributor or have you removed the distributor?

This assumes you have a Bosch OE type distributor cap and that you have placed the wires on the cap in the factory order. This image shows the OE type cap and the wire arrangement which corresponds with the numbers molded into the cap.

If you have removed the distributor, put the engine at TDC as indicated at the flywheel and verified at the pulley end.

Note: You will also want to ascertain that #4 is on the compression stroke by verifying #1 is on the exhaust stroke by looking into the oil filler. You may need to crank the engine around a few times to see it what stroke is actually taking place. As just setting the crank ( via flywheel mark or crank pulley mark) would set the cam (and distributor ) at either #1 OR #4 TDC but not necessarily at the beginning of the power stroke, a 50/50 chance of either occuring. Apparently I have been lucky everytime…

With the access panel out behind the passenger seat you will pull the distributor out again. Point the rotor at the screw on the side of the distributor body which is counter clockwise from the vacuum module. This screw aligns with the #4 plug lead on the cap.

When you put it back into the engine, this will pretty much give you 10°BTDC in my experience. At the very least it will put the distributor very close and it will start.

Once it starts, warm it up and and check the timing using a timing light at the flywheel as that is the most accurate given that the pulley end quadrant can be repositioned.

Pics show the general orientation of the rotor to the screw and the position you want to aim for regarding the clocking of distributor when you put it into the motor. The clocking of the distributor helps with ensuring your vacuum module is in the right spot and your plug wires will reach properly.

I hope this helps.

For those looking very carefully at the timing belt, the image was from a past installation where I wasn’t done yet and had stupidly installed it backwards. I photoshopped the image to get rid of the arrows but some will note the flipped text on the belt.

 

[carl]

Be careful of finding the #4 plug wire location. On this distributor you can start with #1 in any of the plug wire spigots and then just install the other wires in the proper order. So what's shown as #4 in the pics above may not be where #4 is for you. Just trace the #4 plug wire from the plug to the distributor cap to verify.

 

[kmead]

Be careful of finding the #4 plug wire location. On this distributor you can start with #1 in any of the plug wire spigots and then just install the other wires in the proper order. So what's shown as #4 in the pics above may not be where #4 is for you. Just trace the #4 plug wire from the plug to the distributor cap to verify.

The caps I use are labeled, just as I keep my feathers numbered for just such an occaision.

 

[petex19]

The mechanical timing hasn’t changed on the engine. The ignition timing could have if you have moved the distributor or have you removed the distributor?

If you have removed the distributor, put the engine at TDC as indicated at the flywheel and verified at the pulley end. With the access panel out behind the passenger seat you will pull the distributor out again. Point the rotor at the screw on the side of the distributor body which is counter clockwise from the vacuum module. This screw aligns with the #4 plug lead on the cap.

When you put it back into the engine, this will pretty much give you 10°BTDC in my experience. At the very least it will put the distributor very close and it will start.

Once it starts, warm it up and and check the timing using a timing light at the flywheel as that is the most accurate given that the pulley end quadrant can be repositioned.

Pics show the general orientation of the rotor to the screw and the position you want to aim for regarding the clocking of distributor when you put it into the motor. The clocking of the distributor helps with ensuring your vacuum module is in the right spot and your plug wires will reach properly.

I hope this helps.

View attachment 82545View attachment 82546View attachment 82547

Excellent write up thank you. I followed those steps and even verified that cyl #1 piston was at TDC with crank, cam and flywheel all at TDC. I get absolutely zero firing from the engine. Not even a spit or spat. Plugs are new and new fuel.
I pulled number 1 plug and had my wife crank the motor over, the spark was very strong.
I think it has to be the bosch icm or the cap and or rotor?
Would any of those components going bad keep the motor from firing?

 

[kmead]

Excellent write up thank you. I followed those steps and even verified that cyl #1 piston was at TDC with crank, cam and flywheel all at TDC. I get absolutely zero firing from the engine. Not even a spit or spat. Plugs are new and new fuel.
I pulled number 1 plug and had my wife crank the motor over, the spark was very strong.
I think it has to be the bosch icm or the cap and or rotor?
Would any of those components going bad keep the motor from firing?

RX1900 and I had a side conversation where he kindly pointed out that you could still be out of phase as either 1 or 4 could be on the compression stroke despite all the timing marks being in the correct position.

So first verify where #4 is on your cap, then verify by looking into the oil filler cap at #1 to see which cycle it is on. If it is on the compression stroke which is denoted by the intake valve closing (as opposed to the exhaust stroke where the exhaust valve is opening). If #1 is on compression, rotate the engine through two revolutions.

My apologies for not pointing this out.

If the spark is good at the plug then I would say your electronic components are likely fine and your wire repairs were successful.

I will go back and edit my post.

 

[petex19]

RX1900 and I had a side conversation where he kindly pointed out that you could still be out of phase as either 1 or 4 could be on the compression stroke despite all the timing marks being in the correct position.

So first verify where #4 is on your cap, then verify by looking into the oil filler cap at #1 to see which cycle it is on. If it is on the compression stroke which is denoted by the intake valve closing (as opposed to the exhaust stroke where the exhaust valve is opening). If #1 is on compression, rotate the engine through two revolutions.

My apologies for not pointing this out.

If the spark is good at the plug then I would say your electronic components are likely fine and your wire repairs were successful.

I will go back and edit my post.

Thank you for the clarification. Do I not want to be on the compression stroke? I need to find a picture of what the valves should look like when I open the filler cap like you described.

 

[ng_randolph]

Thank you for the clarification. Do I not want to be on the compression stroke? I need to find a picture of what the valves should look like when I open the filler cap like you described.

You want #4 to be on the compression stroke, but the one visible through the oil filler hole is #1. So you check that #4 is on the compression stroke by checking that the #1 is not. And if you find that #1 is on the compression stroke, rotate the engine one revolution (not two, that would just bring you back where you started).

 

[rx1900]

If...it was running fine when it went into storage.....and you now have a strong regular spark at the plugs...and have not messed with the distributor timing or ignition wires since.....then likely ignition is not your issue....

You indicted that you have "fuel at the carbs"......but...any indication that fuel is getting to the engine itself ? Can you smell gas wafting out the carb when cranking ? When not cranking....did you try looking down the carb while blipping the throttle ....you should see a spurt of gas from the accel pump ? Did you try a shot of starting fluid down the carbs and then cranking ? It should fire for a few seconds on that......

 

[petex19]

If...it was running fine when it went into storage.....and you now have a strong regular spark at the plugs...and have not messed with the distributor timing or ignition wires since.....then likely ignition is not your issue....

You indicted that you have "fuel at the carbs"......but...any indication that fuel is getting to the engine itself ? Can you smell gas wafting out the carb when cranking ? When not cranking....did you try looking down the carb while cranking the throttle ....you should see a spurt of gas from the accel pump ? Did you try a shot of starting fluid down the carbs and then cranking ? It should fire for a few seconds on that......

Yes I drove it into storage. I haven't touched the mechanical timing in any way. I just verified that the timing marks at TDC all line up. I did notice that my rotor points to a different spot at TDC then the pictures that were shared. I made sure to make where the rotor is pointing #4 and continued the correct firing order clockwise around the distributor. I need to find a picture that shows me what I should be seeing looking in the oil filler cap at the valves. Years ago I had everything lined up on the exhaust stroke and the engine would backfire through the exhaust when trying to start. This time nothing is happening other than engine cranking over.

 

[kmead]

Starting fluid is always the secondary check to verify if the problem is ignition or fuel supply.

Thank you for the clarification. Do I not want to be on the compression stroke? I need to find a picture of what the valves should look like when I open the filler cap like you described.

When looking in you will see two cam lobes. The one nearest the front of the engine is the exhaust. The second one is the intake cam.

This pair of images show a twin cam so we are only seeing the intake cam but the point is when #1 intake is up then intake valve is closed. Thus due to the orientation of the cams along the length of the shaft, #4 intake will be open.

So for #4 to be up, #1 cam cam lobe has to be down and thus the #1 valve open.

And thank you Doug/RX1900 for helping me through my own brain damage.

 

[petex19]

You want #4 to be on the compression stroke, but the one visible through the oil filler hole is #1. So you check that #4 is on the compression stroke by checking that the #1 is not. And if you find that #1 is on the compression stroke, rotate the engine one revolution (not two, that would just bring you back where you started).

To be clear, when everything is lined up at TDC and looking in the oil filler cap. I want to see the #1 intake valve closed so lobe pointing up and the exhaust valve open so lobe pointing downward or do I have this backwards?

 

[kmead]

To be clear, when everything is lined up at TDC and looking in the oil filler cap. I want to see the #1 intake valve closed so lobe pointing up and the exhaust valve open so lobe pointing downward or do I have this backwards?

I believe you have that backward due to my awkward use of the English language...

#1 intake cam will be down showing an open valve which will have #4 closed despite you not being able to see it.

I improved my words up above let me know if that is clear.

 

[petex19]

To be clear, when everything is lined up at TDC and looking in the oil filler cap. I want to see the #1 intake valve closed so lobe pointing up and the exhaust valve open so lobe pointing downward or do I have this backwards?

I pulled the cam box cover with timing marks at 5' BTDC.
The one picture is cylinder #1 and the other picture is of the entire cam shaft.

 

[petex19]

If...it was running fine when it went into storage.....and you now have a strong regular spark at the plugs...and have not messed with the distributor timing or ignition wires since.....then likely ignition is not your issue....

You indicted that you have "fuel at the carbs"......but...any indication that fuel is getting to the engine itself ? Can you smell gas wafting out the carb when cranking ? When not cranking....did you try looking down the carb while blipping the throttle ....you should see a spurt of gas from the accel pump ? Did you try a shot of starting fluid down the carbs and then cranking ? It should fire for a few seconds on that......

Ding ding ding...you and kmead among many others I'm sure nailed it. I feel kinda dumb having not mentioned what I did to my carbs prior to trying to start it for the first time coming out of storage. For future, I'll always start up the car before making any changes so I know it runs.

Okay so after verifying all my timing marks and even trying a different distributor cap and bosch icm, I was still getting zero firing of the motor. I tried starter fluid and it immediately started for a few seconds and shut off. I know now that the motor runs.
I replaced the carb tops of my twin dcnf's and had to switch over my floats. I also installed new emulsion tubes going from f22 to f24. Both tasks I've done before without any issues. I did not adjust my float levels but thought they would be fine seeing as the carbs were working fine with the other tops. My plugs are wet with fuel and yes my carbs are spraying fuel when I operate the throttle manually. My guess is that it has something to do with my floats.