Stainless steel reservoir seeps

Yves

True Classic
Hi folks,
Need opinion, my stainless steel reservoir seeps at inlet joint solder pipe return tank, I can feel a crack with my fingernail. My tank was chromed 7 years ago.
I want to fix by myself and was thinking to use brazing SSF-6 Silver solder rod from Muggy Weld.
https://www.muggyweld.com/product/ssf-6-silver-solder/

Anybody has experience with this product? or any other recommendation?

k9ZKSnE.jpg


Yves
 
That seems to be a very common leak point. I have repaired it with silver solder from another company, "Stay-Brite". Supposed to be a great product. A bit expensive and I'm not sure if it is any different than standard silver solder. In your case the chrome plating might pose a problem, but I think it is certainly worth a try. I've heard references to some of the newer (relatively speaking) epoxy products being used for this type of repair (as well as for aluminum radiators), but I have never been a fan of using adhesives for such applications.
 
I agree with you Jeff, I think adhesives products it will be not good for long terms in this type of utilization.
 
I believe that one of the supposed benefits to some of those "special" silver solder kits is actually the flux they provide. But I've also seen mention of certain ones having a 'better' alloy mix in their solder. It all sounds like marketing hype to me. Especially when the prices are many time higher. None of the ones I've tried did anything noticeably better than the others. But I'm not highly skilled at soldering so maybe in my case it is more an issue of technique than product. I hoped the 'better' product would help my lack of skill but it did not. :(
 
I braized the neck on my SS tank with silver-solder, using commericial rod with oxy/acetylene. You will absolutely need to remove all the chrome plate from the area.
 
Hi folks,
Need opinion, my stainless steel reservoir seeps at inlet joint solder pipe return tank, I can feel a crack with my fingernail. My tank was chromed 7 years ago.
I want to fix by myself and was thinking to use brazing SSF-6 Silver solder rod from Muggy Weld.
https://www.muggyweld.com/product/ssf-6-silver-solder/

Anybody has experience with this product? or any other recommendation?

I've got some info and experience to share with you, but can't take time to write it all now... I'll be back... Brian
 
I braized the neck on my SS tank with silver-solder, using commericial rod with oxy/acetylene. You will absolutely need to remove all the chrome plate from the area.
Perfect Hussein I take note to remove chrome plate from the area.
 
I had a similar probably with a SS tank and was never able to come up with a long term fix. My guess is that whatever you use has to be able to expand and contract with the heat, otherwise it will eventually crack and weep...
 
Ok Russe I'm not in rush, and it will be a pleasure to read your experience.
Thanks
Yves,

Thanks for your patience. I’ve been very busy, but I wanted to share what I can in the hopes that it will prove helpful. Sorry this is so long, but I’m trying to be thorough without being overly technical.

I have a lot of experience soldering and brazing, but almost exclusively in the realm of repair and manufacture of musical instruments. I can’t guarantee that the experience applies directly, but I suspect it is a good starting point.

Let me start by differentiating a couple things. The term ‘silver solder’ is synonymous with ‘silver brazing’. I prefer the later term because it is less likely to be confused with ‘silver bearing solder’. Silver Brazing (like the product in your link) is a ‘Hard Solder’ and melts in the ballpark of 1500F (800C). Silver Bearing Solder (like the ‘Stay Brite’ Jeff mentioned) is a ‘Soft Solder’ and melts in the ballpark of 450F (230C). So, the two kinds of products are in completely different classifications and using them is significantly different. Using a soft-solder (including the silver bearing solders) to repair a structural failure of a brazed joint won’t be strong enough, and will fail again. But if the joint has structural integrity but leaks, it can be a viable repair option. Bear in mind, though, that if you introduce a soft solder into a brazed joint and then it fails, all the soft solder must be removed before the joint can be re-brazed.

I asked the folks at Harris (the makers of Stay Brite) about using it in this application. The most significant part of their reply was that they didn’t recommend it. (They said that if the operating temperature was up to 200F and there was vibration present, the joint may come apart.)

With regard to Silver Brazing, I haven’t used the exact product in your link, but I use a very similar silver-brazing alloy with 56% Silver on an almost daily basis. That percentage has the lowest ‘flow’ temperature of the cadmium-free alloys. It would be a good choice, although I’d use a small diameter (.032") wire with a separate flux rather than pre-fluxed rods. It’s fairly easy to use, but doesn’t flow quite as easily as the cadmium bearing alloys. An alloy with 45% silver with Cadmium is probably the easiest flowing one you can get, and has the best chance of wicking to the ends of the crack. The cadmium does add some health risk, but it’s a cumulative thing. You won’t have much exposure doing this one little job. And you’ll be following good personal-protection practices, anyway, right? (safety glasses, ventilation, rubber gloves, respirator…)

Brazing is intolerant of contaminants in the joint. As Hussein mentioned, the chrome plating will have to be abraded away in the area of the joint (and will likely be discolored and possibly blistered by the heat in surrounding areas). You’ll also want to remove any trace of coolant that’s left behind in the crack. I think if you fill the tank with water and pressurize it to blow water through the crack that would be a good start. If you’ve got access to an ultrasonic cleaner, that would help greatly. (I’d suggest a diluted phosphoric acid solution in it.)

I have always thought the pre-fluxed rods (like the product you linked) have inadequate flux. Inadequate both in terms of quality and quantity. Superior 601 was my favorite until I switched to Cad-Free a couple years ago. Now I’m using Aufhauser’s ‘Black Silva Flux’, which has a higher limit on the upper temperature. Use liberally.

If you’ve got further questions, I’ll do my best to give good answers, and to reply as soon as I'm able.

Your car is so beautiful and your work so inspiring that it's a little bit intimidating to think I can give you suggestions. But your question addressed my experience so directly that I couldn't just let it pass by.

Best regards,
Brian Russell
 
Brian, great information - thank you for taking the time to share it. I haven't had the need to do much brazing in general so my skills can use all the help possible. I've read several articles online but your condensed description actually made more sense to me.

So just to make sure I'm clear. For someone that seldom does it and therefore not worried about the cumulative health concerns, a solder with 45% silver and Cadmium will be better to work with for a novice like me? I see that "Superior 601" is the flux. Was there a specific brand/model of solder (brazing) filler material you preferred when using this flux?
 
Jeff,

I'm glad you found it to be clear. I struggled with that, a bit.
Many vendors make soldering and brazing supplies, but they make them to conform to uniform specifications. I probably wouldn't even notice if you swapped in some silver-brazing wire from another vendor, as long as it had the same spec. Both the 56%Ag and the 45%Ag+Cd are classified as 'easy flow', but the one with Cd flows easier (that's why they put it in there). There are many good fluxes out there, that would probably all be fine. There seems to be less standardization and more 'secret sauce' with them than with the brazing alloys. The Superior 601 Flux was a particular favorite when I was mostly using a Cadmium-Bearing brazing filler. When I switched to Cad-free I found that sometimes I was burning the flux off before the joint flowed, so I switched to the Aufhauser Black Silva Flux. The Black flux would be fine with the 45%Ag+Cd, too.

Brian
 
Last edited:
Yves,

Thanks for your patience. I’ve been very busy, but I wanted to share what I can in the hopes that it will prove helpful. Sorry this is so long, but I’m trying to be thorough without being overly technical.

I have a lot of experience soldering and brazing, but almost exclusively in the realm of repair and manufacture of musical instruments. I can’t guarantee that the experience applies directly, but I suspect it is a good starting point.

Let me start by differentiating a couple things. The term ‘silver solder’ is synonymous with ‘silver brazing’. I prefer the later term because it is less likely to be confused with ‘silver bearing solder’. Silver Brazing (like the product in your link) is a ‘Hard Solder’ and melts in the ballpark of 1500F (800C). Silver Bearing Solder (like the ‘Stay Brite’ Jeff mentioned) is a ‘Soft Solder’ and melts in the ballpark of 450F (230C). So, the two kinds of products are in completely different classifications and using them is significantly different. Using a soft-solder (including the silver bearing solders) to repair a structural failure of a brazed joint won’t be strong enough, and will fail again. But if the joint has structural integrity but leaks, it can be a viable repair option. Bear in mind, though, that if you introduce a soft solder into a brazed joint and then it fails, all the soft solder must be removed before the joint can be re-brazed.

I asked the folks at Harris (the makers of Stay Brite) about using it in this application. The most significant part of their reply was that they didn’t recommend it. (They said that if the operating temperature was up to 200F and there was vibration present, the joint may come apart.)

With regard to Silver Brazing, I haven’t used the exact product in your link, but I use a very similar silver-brazing alloy with 56% Silver on an almost daily basis. That percentage has the lowest ‘flow’ temperature of the cadmium-free alloys. It would be a good choice, although I’d use a small diameter (.032") wire with a separate flux rather than pre-fluxed rods. It’s fairly easy to use, but doesn’t flow quite as easily as the cadmium bearing alloys. An alloy with 45% silver with Cadmium is probably the easiest flowing one you can get, and has the best chance of wicking to the ends of the crack. The cadmium does add some health risk, but it’s a cumulative thing. You won’t have much exposure doing this one little job. And you’ll be following good personal-protection practices, anyway, right? (safety glasses, ventilation, rubber gloves, respirator…)

Brazing is intolerant of contaminants in the joint. As Hussein mentioned, the chrome plating will have to be abraded away in the area of the joint (and will likely be discolored and possibly blistered by the heat in surrounding areas). You’ll also want to remove any trace of coolant that’s left behind in the crack. I think if you fill the tank with water and pressurize it to blow water through the crack that would be a good start. If you’ve got access to an ultrasonic cleaner, that would help greatly. (I’d suggest a diluted phosphoric acid solution in it.)

I have always thought the pre-fluxed rods (like the product you linked) have inadequate flux. Inadequate both in terms of quality and quantity. Superior 601 was my favorite until I switched to Cad-Free a couple years ago. Now I’m using Aufhauser’s ‘Black Silva Flux’, which has a higher limit on the upper temperature. Use liberally.

If you’ve got further questions, I’ll do my best to give good answers, and to reply as soon as I'm able.

Your car is so beautiful and your work so inspiring that it's a little bit intimidating to think I can give you suggestions. But your question addressed my experience so directly that I couldn't just let it pass by.

Best regards,
Brian Russell

What a great write up Brian, you have summarize the most important things we must know for the silver brazing.
Sure I will apply all the hints recommendation for a success with my repair.

Can you confirm my purchase planning is correct:
From Muggy Weld
SSF-6 Silver solder https://www.muggyweld.com/product/ssf-6-silver-solder/
also
SSF-6 Flux paste https://www.muggyweld.com/product/ssf-6-replacement-flux/

The reason I'm dealing with Muggy Weld products is that he delivers to Canada.

Thank you very much for taking the time to write this document.
I'm sure the whole "X" community appreciates too.

PS. Kermit says Thank you for compliments :)

Best Regards,
Yves
 
What a great write up Brian, you have summarize the most important things we must know for the silver brazing.
Sure I will apply all the hints recommendation for a success with my repair.

Can you confirm my purchase planning is correct:
From Muggy Weld
SSF-6 Silver solder https://www.muggyweld.com/product/ssf-6-silver-solder/
also
SSF-6 Flux paste https://www.muggyweld.com/product/ssf-6-replacement-flux/

The reason I'm dealing with Muggy Weld products is that he delivers to Canada.

Thank you very much for taking the time to write this document.
I'm sure the whole "X" community appreciates too.

PS. Kermit says Thank you for compliments :)

Best Regards,
Yves

Yves,

EDIT: <<<HOLD ON>>> DON"T BUY ANYTHING YET! I NEED TO DOUBLE CHECK SOMETHING!!!

I looked around the Muggy Weld website. What you've selected is definitely the best choice from among their offerings. Their description of the cleaning ability of their flux sounds like it'll do exactly what you need. I hope that is accurate.
Be sure to clean the crack as thoroughly as you can before starting. I'd suggest opening the outer edge with a needle-file or a Dremel-type cutoff wheel. Use plenty of flux. Get some down inside the crack, is possible. You'll want a small but hot flame to minimize the effects on the surrounding area.
I look forward to hearing of your success with it.

Brian
 
Last edited:
So I gotta ask... forgive me if I missed this bit of info, but what type of gas/device produces the necessary "small but hot flame"? I have a stainless tank from a parts car that someone "fixed" the spout with what looks like JBWeld. I can spin the little elbow tube in the hole, so it needs a similar repair. I have a propane torch that makes a flame too big I am sure. I also have two small butane torches that do make small flames, but is a small butane flame hot enough?
 
In my very limited experiences with brazing/soldering I've found it difficult to get everything to the right temperature, and more so to maintain that temperature. So I'll also appreciate hearing any feedback on the subject.
 
So I gotta ask... forgive me if I missed this bit of info, but what type of gas/device produces the necessary "small but hot flame"? I have a stainless tank from a parts car that someone "fixed" the spout with what looks like JBWeld. I can spin the little elbow tube in the hole, so it needs a similar repair. I have a propane torch that makes a flame too big I am sure. I also have two small butane torches that do make small flames, but is a small butane flame hot enough?

Jim,

Thanks for asking. I was running on the assumption that Yves would be using an Oxy/Acetylene torch, which is what I'd recommend. I shouldn't have just assumed that.
Stainless Steel is a poor conductor of heat. Using a Small, Hot flame on Stainless will give a very narrow "Heat Affected Zone", which will do the least damage possible to his chrome plating.

If you can spin the elbow, you're probably not far from being able to remove it. Removing it would give an opportunity to really clean the joint, which would increase the odds of performing a successful repair. Especially if there's something like JBWeld in there.

Please remember: My experience is in a different arena, working almost exclusively on Brass and related alloys. I haven't done this specific repair. I'm offering up suggestions with the hope that they may help, but with no guarantees.

Brian
 
If you can spin the elbow, you're probably not far from being able to remove it. Removing it would give an opportunity to really clean the joint, which would increase the odds of performing a successful repair.
On the one I repaired the little neck wasn't loose, just leaked. But as I heated the spot to try and seal the leak with silver solder, it melted the existing filler material and the whole neck came loose. Then I was able to clean things up better and start over. But I'm guessing the original filler material had a very low melting point, which might have something to do with why they form leaks so easily?

Brian, I imagine you have a small "jewelers" style torch you use for your O/A kit?
 
Jim,

Thanks for asking. I was running on the assumption that Yves would be using an Oxy/Acetylene torch, which is what I'd recommend. I shouldn't have just assumed that.
Stainless Steel is a poor conductor of heat. Using a Small, Hot flame on Stainless will give a very narrow "Heat Affected Zone", which will do the least damage possible to his chrome plating.

If you can spin the elbow, you're probably not far from being able to remove it. Removing it would give an opportunity to really clean the joint, which would increase the odds of performing a successful repair. Especially if there's something like JBWeld in there.

Please remember: My experience is in a different arena, working almost exclusively on Brass and related alloys. I haven't done this specific repair. I'm offering up suggestions with the hope that they may help, but with no guarantees.

Brian

Oups!
I was planning to use "The Bernzomatic MAP-Pro Hand Torch Flame" ... the yellow bottle
https://www.bernzomatic.com/Products/Fuel-Cylinders/Hand-Torch-Cylinders/MG9
 
Back
Top