Starter Not Spinning

T

Tin Soldier

Daily Driver
Hey folks -

My son and I pulled the starter (1975 1300) with solenoid and put it on the bench. I applied 12 V (from big truck battery) and the bendix snaps out nice and firmly, but the thing doesn't spin. It looks like it wants to spin, kind of like its in thick goo. We pulled the commutator out, brushes look good, springs push them in well, magnets are clean. We lubed up the bushings at both ends, put it back together and we can spin the commutator by hand. Anyway, we're thinking of having it rebuilt by a shop but it doesn't seem like it needs it. Other than it doesn't spin.

Any thoughts?
 
Connect the battery to its normal screw post. Now jump across the two screw posts with a screwdriver. The starter should jump to life. If not, the starter is bad. Now, jump from the battery screw post to the spade terminal. The bendix should move AND the starter should jump to life. If the bendix moves but the starter doesn't it's the contact points inside the solenoid.

Tin Soldier said:
Hey folks -

My son and I pulled the starter (1975 1300) with solenoid and put it on the bench. I applied 12 V (from big truck battery) and the bendix snaps out nice and firmly, but the thing doesn't spin. It looks like it wants to spin, kind of like its in thick goo. We pulled the commutator out, brushes look good, springs push them in well, magnets are clean. We lubed up the bushings at both ends, put it back together and we can spin the commutator by hand. Anyway, we're thinking of having it rebuilt by a shop but it doesn't seem like it needs it. Other than it doesn't spin.

Any thoughts?
Click to expand...
 
As Steve says... And to possibly be a bit more clear...

Connecting the + jumper to the regular battery MAIN post on the solenoid is necessary to operate the motor THROUGH the solenoid... and shorting it to the spade connector supplies +12 operate the solenoid and connect that voltage to the motor... and it all now should run WITH the Bendix drive engaged.

Touching just the small spade terminal where the RED wire goes, will just operate the Solenoid.

Again as Steve says, if the solenoid engages and the motor does not run, then the contacts internally can be freshened to make it work again for another 30 years. If the solenoid does not operate... then its toast and need replacement. Prove the motor good FIRST as the solenoid may not be the only problem.

Details upon request as to refreshing the solenoid.

I betcha a buck the motor runs well though...

Now go to the rear of the car and look at the GROUND STRAP between the chassis and the trans near the LR tire. Pull, clean and re-torque... just don't LOOK at it...

Lastly... in case you didn't know or have tried this. Install the wiring FIRST and then force the starter UP and between the radiator hose... Same coming down... pull the starter first and let it hang, then remove the wiring.

Good luck, let us know how it goes!
 
I betcha the motor does run well. We opened it up and the componenst all look real good, like an electric motor should be. We applied 12 to both the spade and the main posi post and indeed we are not getting rotation on the bendix, but it does snap foward, nicely.

Based on what you are saying, I think we need to freshen the solenoid contacts. That's an internal thing I gather? I'd like to hear more about that if you can post or send me to a link.

Thanks to both of you guys for the excellent detailed info. Sorry I wasn't snappy on response, got side-tracked on other project this weekend.
 
Yep... I would say the same.

BUT... Prove the motor works FIRST by applying voltage to the terminal leading FROM the solenoid INTO the motor!



Here... I found a starter. Tie the - jumper to the CASE and the + jumper to the terminal in YELLOW to prove the motor works.



Now place the + jumper on the terminal circled in RED and with a small wire or screw driver, connect power to the BLADE terminal you used to activate the solenoid earlier.

If the starter spins and the Bendix throws, all is good!

1. You proved the motor works.
2. You proved the solenoid works.
3. You proved the contacts INSIDE the solenoid work.

If you can do steps 1 and 2 above but the 3rd test fails, then the contacts are bad in the solenoid.

I have no photos to show you so it will be hopefully LESS than a 1000 words for each step. Here again, I found a GENERIC pictorial for a GM Truck but its essential the same process:

http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/63...ngine/140514-how-repair-starter-solenoid.html

1. With the starter on a bench, unbolt the solenoid as well as (usually) the large bronze nut that attaches the output terminal to the starter.

2. With the solenoid sitting on its face... remove (two) screws that hold the cover on the backside of the solenoid.

3. You will probably need to unsolder two leads for the activating coil terminals.

4. Upon inspection, you'll not that the two LARGE bronze bolts have most likely WORN in a crescent shape were the contact disc has hit them. Push the bolts out and clock them 180 degrees for NEW surfaces.

5. If feasible without damaging the contact disc, disassemble it and turn it over for a new surface to hit the bolts. Otherwise just clean it up as best as possible.

6. (I love to say this...) Reassemble in reverse order... and bench-test before reinstalling!

HTH!

p.s. I found all the stuff I didn't think I could post on GOOGLE! Ovi in Romania told me once that Google was my friend. I guess he could be your friend too!
 
Thanks sooooo very much. I opened up a starter solenoid once before. I think it was on the diesel V8 and it looks a lot like the one in the link. This is really good info.

We'll get started on the starter and let you know how it turns out.

Thanks
 
That photo is a KEEPER! I'm really not surprized...

That I can't remember stuff anymore, but even thought the internals are a bit different, they basically all do the same and operate the same way as well.

I remember now that I felt I would have difficulty FLIPPING the center contact and just cleaned it up... as I feared I could not get it together again. Were you able to do so?
 
Re: wiring

Black-Tooth said:
Lastly... in case you didn't know or have tried this. Install the wiring FIRST and then force the starter UP and between the radiator hose... Same coming down... pull the starter first and let it hang, then remove the wiring.
Click to expand...

WARNING: An unfortunate possible consequence of leaving the wiring connected in this manner is that the leverage being forced upon the top post connector (circled in red in Tony's photo below) as the heavy starter is hanging from the cable (or being awkwardly rotated/angled from below during removal) may break that post off from the solenoid housing, or to be more concise, the black or brown plastic/porcelain part of the solenoid that holds the post in place can crack or break. :(


vyrn_28945200v13.jpg
 
Black-Tooth said:
That I can't remember stuff anymore, but even thought the internals are a bit different, they basically all do the same and operate the same way as well.

I remember now that I felt I would have difficulty FLIPPING the center contact and just cleaned it up... as I feared I could not get it together again. Were you able to do so?
Click to expand...

I flipped the center contact (in the picture it already is I think, the "wear" marks are on the "backside"??, the terminal posts I just ground down as you suggested then put washers (with an edge ground down to fit) to get the right depth again, but that was years ago already.
 
Yep... Ya gotta be careful. That one lead can...

usually be removed from the top and then the entire thing "birthed" between the pan and the the radiator hose... to more easily unbolt the battery cable and undo any other wires!

Of course... The - Cable on the battery should be disconnected for safety reasons to prevent arcs and sparks!

I haven't personally had a problem with breakage though, but must admit I've only done this work about 5 or 10 times.
 
Starter related question

Black-Tooth said:
BUT... Prove the motor works FIRST by applying voltage to the terminal leading FROM the solenoid INTO the motor!



Here... I found a starter. Tie the - jumper to the CASE and the + jumper to the terminal in YELLOW to prove the motor works.



Now place the + jumper on the terminal circled in RED and with a small wire or screw driver, connect power to the BLADE terminal you used to activate the solenoid earlier.

If the starter spins and the Bendix throws, all is good!

1. You proved the motor works.
2. You proved the solenoid works.
3. You proved the contacts INSIDE the solenoid work.

If you can do steps 1 and 2 above but the 3rd test fails, then the contacts are bad in the solenoid.

I have no photos to show you so it will be hopefully LESS than a 1000 words for each step. Here again, I found a GENERIC pictorial for a GM Truck but its essential the same process:

http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/63...ngine/140514-how-repair-starter-solenoid.html

1. With the starter on a bench, unbolt the solenoid as well as (usually) the large bronze nut that attaches the output terminal to the starter.

2. With the solenoid sitting on its face... remove (two) screws that hold the cover on the backside of the solenoid.

3. You will probably need to unsolder two leads for the activating coil terminals.

4. Upon inspection, you'll not that the two LARGE bronze bolts have most likely WORN in a crescent shape were the contact disc has hit them. Push the bolts out and clock them 180 degrees for NEW surfaces.

5. If feasible without damaging the contact disc, disassemble it and turn it over for a new surface to hit the bolts. Otherwise just clean it up as best as possible.

6. (I love to say this...) Reassemble in reverse order... and bench-test before reinstalling!

HTH!

p.s. I found all the stuff I didn't think I could post on GOOGLE! Ovi in Romania told me once that Google was my friend. I guess he could be your friend too!
Click to expand...


My Lancia Zagato has a starter issue, I think. Since you know about Fiat starters thought I would run it by you. This is what happened. The car started normally, but there was a whirring sound coming from the passenger side of the engine bay down where the starter is located. BWT it's a brand new starter, only been in the car a couple of weeks. Shut off the motor and the sound continued. Starter would not engage and car would not turn over. Then waited a while while we were trying to decide what to do, and the whirring stopped. Then the starter worked and it started right up. Ran fine, and has started a dozen times since without a similar occurrence. What do you think happened?
 
Ovenbird said:
My Lancia Zagato has a starter issue, I think. Since you know about Fiat starters thought I would run it by you. This is what happened. The car started normally, but there was a whirring sound coming from the passenger side of the engine bay down where the starter is located. BWT it's a brand new starter, only been in the car a couple of weeks. Shut off the motor and the sound continued. Starter would not engage and car would not turn over. Then waited a while while we were trying to decide what to do, and the whirring stopped. Then the starter worked and it started right up. Ran fine, and has started a dozen times since without a similar occurrence. What do you think happened?
Click to expand...

you weren't asking me I know but I'm bored
starter motor was spinning but bendix didn't kick it onto the flywheel, why it would spontaneously do this, then quit makes me suspect some wiring issues, how exactly I don't know, or maybe (more likely?) it failed to disengage after the engine was running so the engine was now spinning the starter, until if finally let go??
 
Yep... what Jeff said but I think it COULD probably...

be a mechanical issue as well... Especially with regard to it failing to engage the flywheel.

The after run does sound a bit like an electrical problem though.

WORD-SMITH-ING what you wrote some more... You said the STARTER was new. Is the SOLENOID new as well? Did you reuse the old solenoid or did one come on/with the starter.

Did you BENCH-TEST it as we spoke of earlier ensuring 1) the solenoid operated, 2) the motor operated, and 3) using a jumper to operate the solenoid as well as supplying voltage to the solenoid contacts... were you able to operate the starter and engage the Bendix drive all at once?

(If not... I betcha you do next time! I bench test using the battery and jumper cables in the floor of the front trunk... Quick and dirty and ASSURES me that it will be OK when I put it back up.)

Back to you... Glad the problem went away... but I don't trust stuff fixing themselves. I suggest you at least LOOK at the wiring insuring it is not in contact with anything it should be... especially the battery cable and the spade connector that comes from the ignition switch! Also LOOSEN the 3 mounting bolts and make sure the starter is seated properly and then re-tighten.

Lastly... a milli-second squirt of WD40 into the key hole on the steering column and exercising it a bit with the key should eliminate any binding issues in the ignition switch.

At the first sign of anything peculiar... pull it out and we'll go from there.

HTH...
 
Ok will do

Black-Tooth said:
be a mechanical issue as well... Especially with regard to it failing to engage the flywheel.

The after run does sound a bit like an electrical problem though.

WORD-SMITH-ING what you wrote some more... You said the STARTER was new. Is the SOLENOID new as well? Did you reuse the old solenoid or did one come on/with the starter.

Did you BENCH-TEST it as we spoke of earlier ensuring 1) the solenoid operated, 2) the motor operated, and 3) using a jumper to operate the solenoid as well as supplying voltage to the solenoid contacts... were you able to operate the starter and engage the Bendix drive all at once?

(If not... I betcha you do next time! I bench test using the battery and jumper cables in the floor of the front trunk... Quick and dirty and ASSURES me that it will be OK when I put it back up.)

Back to you... Glad the problem went away... but I don't trust stuff fixing themselves. I suggest you at least LOOK at the wiring insuring it is not in contact with anything it should be... especially the battery cable and the spade connector that comes from the ignition switch! Also LOOSEN the 3 mounting bolts and make sure the starter is seated properly and then re-tighten.

Lastly... a milli-second squirt of WD40 into the key hole on the steering column and exercising it a bit with the key should eliminate any binding issues in the ignition switch.

At the first sign of anything peculiar... pull it out and we'll go from there.

HTH...
Click to expand...

Thanks for the info. Will check connections and key switch.
 
Update - I did get the starter to spin. We cleaned up the solenoid and put it all back together. However, after installing back in the engine, we could get the engine to spin. I think its frozen, so I'll need to get a socket for the crankshaft bolt and give it a few turn by hand. Pulled the plugs also, but still no spin. I'll probably put this issue away while I get the body work done. Thanks for the help all.
 
Shoot a little PB Blaster in each cylinder and let it sit overnight first.

Tin Soldier said:
Update - I did get the starter to spin. We cleaned up the solenoid and put it all back together. However, after installing back in the engine, we could get the engine to spin. I think its frozen, so I'll need to get a socket for the crankshaft bolt and give it a few turn by hand. Pulled the plugs also, but still no spin. I'll probably put this issue away while I get the body work done. Thanks for the help all.
Click to expand...
 
Shoot a LOT of PB Blaster and work the crank...

or put the car in 4th and rock it gently... to GENTLY free the engine up.

Take a week and test it every day... After that... will talk some more.
 
I was told that the engine was rebuilt by a diesel mechanic, but it sat for at least 10 years after that or more. PB it is. I like the 4th and rock idea, but the tires are shot so that'll be a bit tough. I put my 17 yr old on the a rear wheel and had him try to spin it in gear, in the air, not in 4th though. We'll try that. Thanks
 
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