Starter related problem

DanielForest

True Classic
I changed my clutch and cleaned the transmission last summer but didn't foud time to put back everything together last year. So I just did recently. Coudn't get the battery to start the car. I found my door lights were always opened and drained my battery. I tried to clean the switches with no success, so I removed the white relay in the fuse box. Then I got myself a new battery and the car started fine. A week later, I was ready for a test drive. Car didn't start. I charged the battery, but still no start. I could hear the fuel pump priming but not the starter. I checked and torqued the wire connections at the starter. Still no results. My son and I pushed the car on the street and start it on compression. No problem. Car ran fin, gears switched fine. Then I parked the car, and it doesnt want to start again... which I expected...

I assume it's the starter. Am I right by thinking if I can't start it using the key but could start it by pushing it on compression, it is the starter? Or could it be something else?

I have plenty of used starters but I don't want to fit another bad one. Is testing a starter using a battery and putting current on the positive connector and ground is the right way to test it?
 
I agree, if it "push starts" then the engine/fuel/spark is fine. It could also be something in the electrical system going to the starter. Before removing the starter put a meter to the solenoid while your son turns the key, to see if it is getting 12V. My guess is the solenoid itself, not the starter motor.

Usually you can use jumper cables to test a starter off the car, one grounding the case and the other on the terminal and it will spin. But on these you need to make the solenoid activate for the connection to be complete. It needs to be well supported because when it spins it has a lot of torque and can 'jump' around.

Make sure you are under the car and it is in gear, that way if it starts....oh, wait...I said that out loud. :p
 
Imagine how much fun we would have though.

Usually a bad starter motor (vs the solenoid) is sluggish or makes a electrical wine when trying to turn but can't or you get the "click - click". If you get no response at all that sounds more like no electrical signal - either going to the solenoid, or in the solenoid.
 
I just rebuilt my X's marelli starter solenoid this weekend, so ill try to be of some help. When it failed, it would make no noise or anything- but the voltage gauge would dip upon turning the key. At the time, the starter signal wire to the double relay was not connected, so there was nothing else to pull current when turning the key, indicating that the solenoid was getting power but not engaging.

I had such little confidence in the repair that I actually ordered a gear reduction starter before even reinstalling it, but that was pretty stupid considering that it now acts as if it's brand new. Before the repair, not only would it often fail to even engage (which was the issue that drove me to remove it), but it was also fairly sluggish. I assumed it was just an old and tired starter motor but I was wrong.

After pulling the starter, there's two bolts that hold the solenoid assembly onto the starter body. Once those are out and the wire from the starter motor itself to the solenoid is undone, the solenoid assembly should slide right out, leaving a metal cylinder in the starter body.

Once the solenoid is off, remove the two screws on the terminal side of the solenoid and it should loosen up once the seal is broken.

If you have a soldeirng iron on hand, this would be a good time to remove the dab of solder on the trace from the solenoid trigger connector. I did not have a soldering iron on hand, so I crossed my fingers and used force. The internal wire seperated right at the end, leaving a pointy copper wire and a nice hole for it to seat back into upon reassembly. Maybe I got lucky.

By now the cap should be quite loose, and the two copper wires on the other side of the solenoid should have enough slack to allow you to move the cap off of the end of the body, leaving room to service what's inside. These wires could likely be desoldered too, but, I didn't.

In my case, after testing before and after, two things were happening.

1- The plastic pieces which the contacts slide on when the solenoid is triggered were dry and dirty with what I presume is material splatter from the contacts.

2- The contacts themselves were in such bad shape that the resistance of the circuit, even when completed and the starter motor is engaged, must've been quite high. All of the current that the starter motor gets obviously travels through these two contacts in series, so if either of them is bad, it's reducing your cranking power. One contact will likely be in worse shape than the other as the side which contacts first (since lets be honest, nothing is perfect) still has an open circuit and will thus not have any arcing...the same cannot be said for the side which contacts last.


Both of these issues are easily fixed by removing the contact pin and contacts from the electromagnet section, cleaning the plastic sliding components, removing the tarnish on the copper contacts using a magic eraser ( a Scotch Brite would likely work well too), and lubricating the plastic sliding components with plastic on plastic lubricant. I used Berulub FR43 (500c cabrio top grease) as I know it will last longer than the assembly will and is well suited to the application. As a last restoration step, clean the other end of the contacts on the plastic cap itself- be careful not to apply too much force if you still have wires hanging on to it. Drop the contacts back in ( I did it 180 degrees offset from how it came out so they were mating with a new surface) and replace the cap. It'll take a few tries to get everything lined up, but eventually, it should go together without too much effort. The cap thankfully contains guides for the solenoid trigger wire, so it ends up back at its solder joint. I did not worry about resoldering it as the fit was so snug in the terminal.

When reassembling everything, apply a bit more plastic lube to the inside of the electromagnetic cylinder, as this is a plastic on metal interface. As an extra step, I applied a tiny amount of wheel-bearing grease to both the starter gear and the pin it slides on, and the hinge down inside where the solenoid sits.


All in all, it's likely less than 30 minutes of work, and in my case, yielded a starter that turns the engine over more than twice as fast as it did before (sounds new) , and requires much less current for the solenoid to engage. It has once not immediately engaged, when the cooling fan, headlights, brake lights, and blower were on... but this is an extreme case IMO- simply letting off the brake gave it enough voltage to fire right up without issue.


This was too damn long for such a simple DIY, sorry about that. Maybe I'm just a little cheerful still that the effort paid off when I had no expectation of it doing so.
 
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Good work but you didn’t resolder the joint...solder is there to make a good low resistance high current electricical joint between conducting metals AND keep containments out of the joint preventing corrosion. It’s a potential failure point some where down the line...
 
Could be your main battery cable connections also - the both ends. Anything that increases resistance in the circuit is a problem. You can wedge a screwdriver down between the battery cable and the trigger wire to test whether it's the starter or the cable...
 
Good work but you didn’t resolder the joint...solder is there to make a good low resistance high current electricical joint between conducting metals AND keep containments out of the joint preventing corrosion. It’s a potential failure point some where down the line...
Absolutely, I do agree, I just don't have a soldering iron yet. Will soon. The wire got pulled to a a point that actually fit very snugly into the terminal (the last 5mm of travel when reinstalling the cap had pretty high resistance as the wire slid into the hole) but I'll probably put a dab of solder on it when I can.
 
I just rebuilt my X's marelli starter solenoid this weekend, so ill try to be of some help. When it failed, it would make no noise or anything- but the voltage gauge would dip upon turning the key. At the time, the starter signal wire to the double relay was not connected, so there was nothing else to pull current when turning the key, indicating that the solenoid was getting power but not engaging.

I had such little confidence in the repair that I actually ordered a gear reduction starter before even reinstalling it, but that was pretty stupid considering that it now acts as if it's brand new. Before the repair, not only would it often fail to even engage (which was the issue that drove me to remove it), but it was also fairly sluggish. I assumed it was just an old and tired starter motor but I was wrong.

After pulling the starter, there's two bolts that hold the solenoid assembly onto the starter body. Once those are out and the wire from the starter motor itself to the solenoid is undone, the solenoid assembly should slide right out, leaving a metal cylinder in the starter body.

Once the solenoid is off, remove the two screws on the terminal side of the solenoid and it should loosen up once the seal is broken.

If you have a soldeirng iron on hand, this would be a good time to remove the dab of solder on the trace from the solenoid trigger connector. I did not have a soldering iron on hand, so I crossed my fingers and used force. The internal wire seperated right at the end, leaving a pointy copper wire and a nice hole for it to seat back into upon reassembly. Maybe I got lucky.

By now the cap should be quite loose, and the two copper wires on the other side of the solenoid should have enough slack to allow you to move the cap off of the end of the body, leaving room to service what's inside. These wires could likely be desoldered too, but, I didn't.

In my case, after testing before and after, two things were happening.

1- The plastic pieces which the contacts slide on when the solenoid is triggered were dry and dirty with what I presume is material splatter from the contacts.

2- The contacts themselves were in such bad shape that the resistance of the circuit, even when completed and the starter motor is engaged, must've been quite high. All of the current that the starter motor gets obviously travels through these two contacts in series, so if either of them is bad, it's reducing your cranking power. One contact will likely be in worse shape than the other as the side which contacts first (since lets be honest, nothing is perfect) still has an open circuit and will thus not have any arcing...the same cannot be said for the side which contacts last.


Both of these issues are easily fixed by removing the contact pin and contacts from the electromagnet section, cleaning the plastic sliding components, removing the tarnish on the copper contacts using a magic eraser ( a Scotch Brite would likely work well too), and lubricating the plastic sliding components with plastic on plastic lubricant. I used Berulub FR43 (500c cabrio top grease) as I know it will last longer than the assembly will and is well suited to the application. As a last restoration step, clean the other end of the contacts on the plastic cap itself- be careful not to apply too much force if you still have wires hanging on to it. Drop the contacts back in ( I did it 180 degrees offset from how it came out so they were mating with a new surface) and replace the cap. It'll take a few tries to get everything lined up, but eventually, it should go together without too much effort. The cap thankfully contains guides for the solenoid trigger wire, so it ends up back at its solder joint. I did not worry about resoldering it as the fit was so snug in the terminal.

When reassembling everything, apply a bit more plastic lube to the inside of the electromagnetic cylinder, as this is a plastic on metal interface. As an extra step, I applied a tiny amount of wheel-bearing grease to both the starter gear and the pin it slides on, and the hinge down inside where the solenoid sits.


All in all, it's likely less than 30 minutes of work, and in my case, yielded a starter that turns the engine over more than twice as fast as it did before (sounds new) , and requires much less current for the solenoid to engage. It has once not immediately engaged, when the cooling fan, headlights, brake lights, and blower were on... but this is an extreme case IMO- simply letting off the brake gave it enough voltage to fire right up without issue.


This was too damn long for such a simple DIY, sorry about that. Maybe I'm just a little cheerful still that the effort paid off when I had no expectation of it doing so.

Since nobody else said it Jonohhh.....thank you for the excellent write-up !!!!

i'm sure it will be very helpful to folks here.....and a perfect example of what this forum should be about.......
 
I just rebuilt my X's marelli starter solenoid this weekend, so ill try to be of some help. When it failed, it would make no noise or anything- but the voltage gauge would dip upon turning the key. At the time, the starter signal wire to the double relay was not connected, so there was nothing else to pull current when turning the key, indicating that the solenoid was getting power but not engaging.

I had such little confidence in the repair that I actually ordered a gear reduction starter before even reinstalling it, but that was pretty stupid considering that it now acts as if it's brand new. Before the repair, not only would it often fail to even engage (which was the issue that drove me to remove it), but it was also fairly sluggish. I assumed it was just an old and tired starter motor but I was wrong.

After pulling the starter, there's two bolts that hold the solenoid assembly onto the starter body. Once those are out and the wire from the starter motor itself to the solenoid is undone, the solenoid assembly should slide right out, leaving a metal cylinder in the starter body.

Once the solenoid is off, remove the two screws on the terminal side of the solenoid and it should loosen up once the seal is broken.

If you have a soldeirng iron on hand, this would be a good time to remove the dab of solder on the trace from the solenoid trigger connector. I did not have a soldering iron on hand, so I crossed my fingers and used force. The internal wire seperated right at the end, leaving a pointy copper wire and a nice hole for it to seat back into upon reassembly. Maybe I got lucky.

By now the cap should be quite loose, and the two copper wires on the other side of the solenoid should have enough slack to allow you to move the cap off of the end of the body, leaving room to service what's inside. These wires could likely be desoldered too, but, I didn't.

In my case, after testing before and after, two things were happening.

1- The plastic pieces which the contacts slide on when the solenoid is triggered were dry and dirty with what I presume is material splatter from the contacts.

2- The contacts themselves were in such bad shape that the resistance of the circuit, even when completed and the starter motor is engaged, must've been quite high. All of the current that the starter motor gets obviously travels through these two contacts in series, so if either of them is bad, it's reducing your cranking power. One contact will likely be in worse shape than the other as the side which contacts first (since lets be honest, nothing is perfect) still has an open circuit and will thus not have any arcing...the same cannot be said for the side which contacts last.


Both of these issues are easily fixed by removing the contact pin and contacts from the electromagnet section, cleaning the plastic sliding components, removing the tarnish on the copper contacts using a magic eraser ( a Scotch Brite would likely work well too), and lubricating the plastic sliding components with plastic on plastic lubricant. I used Berulub FR43 (500c cabrio top grease) as I know it will last longer than the assembly will and is well suited to the application. As a last restoration step, clean the other end of the contacts on the plastic cap itself- be careful not to apply too much force if you still have wires hanging on to it. Drop the contacts back in ( I did it 180 degrees offset from how it came out so they were mating with a new surface) and replace the cap. It'll take a few tries to get everything lined up, but eventually, it should go together without too much effort. The cap thankfully contains guides for the solenoid trigger wire, so it ends up back at its solder joint. I did not worry about resoldering it as the fit was so snug in the terminal.

When reassembling everything, apply a bit more plastic lube to the inside of the electromagnetic cylinder, as this is a plastic on metal interface. As an extra step, I applied a tiny amount of wheel-bearing grease to both the starter gear and the pin it slides on, and the hinge down inside where the solenoid sits.


All in all, it's likely less than 30 minutes of work, and in my case, yielded a starter that turns the engine over more than twice as fast as it did before (sounds new) , and requires much less current for the solenoid to engage. It has once not immediately engaged, when the cooling fan, headlights, brake lights, and blower were on... but this is an extreme case IMO- simply letting off the brake gave it enough voltage to fire right up without issue.


This was too damn long for such a simple DIY, sorry about that. Maybe I'm just a little cheerful still that the effort paid off when I had no expectation of it doing so.
Great work, thank you very much for posting what you did and the results.

I need to pull mine on my ‘85 as the starter is now sticking in the “on” position until it has run for a few seconds after hitting the key. Likely just some grunge buildup which needs cleaning, it spins up just fine with plenty of oomph so it is certainly not on its last legs.
 
I just rebuilt my X's marelli starter solenoid this weekend, so ill try to be of some help. When it failed, it would make no noise or anything- but the voltage gauge would dip upon turning the key. At the time, the starter signal wire to the double relay was not connected, so there was nothing else to pull current when turning the key, indicating that the solenoid was getting power but not engaging.

I had such little confidence in the repair that I actually ordered a gear reduction starter before even reinstalling it, but that was pretty stupid considering that it now acts as if it's brand new. Before the repair, not only would it often fail to even engage (which was the issue that drove me to remove it), but it was also fairly sluggish. I assumed it was just an old and tired starter motor but I was wrong.

After pulling the starter, there's two bolts that hold the solenoid assembly onto the starter body. Once those are out and the wire from the starter motor itself to the solenoid is undone, the solenoid assembly should slide right out, leaving a metal cylinder in the starter body.

Once the solenoid is off, remove the two screws on the terminal side of the solenoid and it should loosen up once the seal is broken.

If you have a soldeirng iron on hand, this would be a good time to remove the dab of solder on the trace from the solenoid trigger connector. I did not have a soldering iron on hand, so I crossed my fingers and used force. The internal wire seperated right at the end, leaving a pointy copper wire and a nice hole for it to seat back into upon reassembly. Maybe I got lucky.

By now the cap should be quite loose, and the two copper wires on the other side of the solenoid should have enough slack to allow you to move the cap off of the end of the body, leaving room to service what's inside. These wires could likely be desoldered too, but, I didn't.

In my case, after testing before and after, two things were happening.

1- The plastic pieces which the contacts slide on when the solenoid is triggered were dry and dirty with what I presume is material splatter from the contacts.

2- The contacts themselves were in such bad shape that the resistance of the circuit, even when completed and the starter motor is engaged, must've been quite high. All of the current that the starter motor gets obviously travels through these two contacts in series, so if either of them is bad, it's reducing your cranking power. One contact will likely be in worse shape than the other as the side which contacts first (since lets be honest, nothing is perfect) still has an open circuit and will thus not have any arcing...the same cannot be said for the side which contacts last.


Both of these issues are easily fixed by removing the contact pin and contacts from the electromagnet section, cleaning the plastic sliding components, removing the tarnish on the copper contacts using a magic eraser ( a Scotch Brite would likely work well too), and lubricating the plastic sliding components with plastic on plastic lubricant. I used Berulub FR43 (500c cabrio top grease) as I know it will last longer than the assembly will and is well suited to the application. As a last restoration step, clean the other end of the contacts on the plastic cap itself- be careful not to apply too much force if you still have wires hanging on to it. Drop the contacts back in ( I did it 180 degrees offset from how it came out so they were mating with a new surface) and replace the cap. It'll take a few tries to get everything lined up, but eventually, it should go together without too much effort. The cap thankfully contains guides for the solenoid trigger wire, so it ends up back at its solder joint. I did not worry about resoldering it as the fit was so snug in the terminal.

When reassembling everything, apply a bit more plastic lube to the inside of the electromagnetic cylinder, as this is a plastic on metal interface. As an extra step, I applied a tiny amount of wheel-bearing grease to both the starter gear and the pin it slides on, and the hinge down inside where the solenoid sits.


All in all, it's likely less than 30 minutes of work, and in my case, yielded a starter that turns the engine over more than twice as fast as it did before (sounds new) , and requires much less current for the solenoid to engage. It has once not immediately engaged, when the cooling fan, headlights, brake lights, and blower were on... but this is an extreme case IMO- simply letting off the brake gave it enough voltage to fire right up without issue.


This was too damn long for such a simple DIY, sorry about that. Maybe I'm just a little cheerful still that the effort paid off when I had no expectation of it doing so.
Excellent description, guess you didn’t take photos along the way?
 
I finally ironed out a long-standing electrical issue with my 124 that's not dissimilar to what you describe. The issue was the ignition switch!
 
Excellent description, guess you didn’t take photos along the way?
I wish I would've taken photos! I didn't have any confidence or expectation of it working, so I didn't even think I'd be doing a DIY. However, the gear reduction unit got here just the other day and I have nothing to do before classes start- so I may as well put it on. Maybe I'll have time to do it again and get a video :)
 
Did I ever tell you I'm pretty dumb about all electric related things. First, I wanted to be sure the connections at the starter were fine. I torqued the nut with the power wire and ensure the one with the two wires going on a spade are well fitted. Car still doesn't want to start. No starter noise at all. Not even a click.

So I got my son turning the key in the ignition switch and used a multimeter on the starter. 0.00 all the time. I was putting the red probe on the stud for the power wire and the black one on the body of the starter, then on a stud on the body of the car, the on a stud at the back of the starter. 0.00 all the time. Maybe I don't know how to use a multimeter... but it seems I don't get power to the starter. So what should be my next step?

Did I wrongly used the multimeter.

Should I go checking if I got power at the ignition switch?

Maybe something as silly as having a washer between the power cable on the solenoid connection?

Cause it doesn't look like a should changer the starter.

BTW, the battery is new, I got the Brown wire mod for 10 years on the car, there were some broken copper wire in the negative cable at the battery, so I changed the cable. I hear the sound of the fuel pump when I'm turning the key. And all accesories seems to be working including the headlamps.

And, as I said previously, the car is starting if pushed in gear. And I'm stupid about electricity.
 
Seems to me you are measuring correctly. Make sure the meter is set to DC V, not AC V. The stud on the starter should have battery voltage at all times. You should see two fat wires going to this stud, one to the alternator and one to the battery. If you see no voltage at the stud, start by checking each end of the fat cable from the battery to the starter. Any sign of a break in the wire? The most likely spot for a break is where the wire exits the battery clamp or ring terminal.

Also check the ground strap from the transmission to the body.
 
Hey Daniel. It's been a while since I hooked up the starter...and someone correct me if any of this info is incorrect..but look at this pic:
IMG_20210529_202514.jpg


There are 2 big threaded studs on the starter. The one at 9 o'clock gets nothing hooked up to it really. There is a thick wire under the nut that goes from that stud ( under the nut ) into the starter motor itself.

The big stud at 3 o'clock gets 2 large wires bolted onto into. A really big wire ( usually green ) that goes to the battery. And a medium sized wire ( I think usually purple ) that you can see goes to the alternator.

And....look closely at the 6 o'clock position. There is a spade terminal sticking out. Onto this goes a small size wire that has a female spade terminal on it. I forget what colour that wire is.

Yes..take your voltmeter and set it to 20v DC. Touch the black lead of your meter to a ground anywhere. And the red lead to the stud at 3 o'clock ( where those 2 big wires are attached ). You should see battery voltage - about 12.5v DC.

There should of course be no voltage at the 9 o'clock stud.

Now pull off that spade connector at 6 o'clock. With your black meter lead to ground...and the red meter lead stuck inside the female spade connector of the little wire......there should be about 12.5 V DC ONLY when the key gets turned to the "start" position.

If you dont get the 12.5 V in the above two tests...something is really wrong. If you do get 12.5V in both those tests...hook that little wire back up to the spade terminal...and the starter should engage when you turn the key to the start position.

We will go from there......
 
I will double-check. But I wired everything right (as described) and there is no voltage at the 3 oclock stud.

What is strange is at first I had a battery dicharge problem because my door lights were staying open all the time. BUT the car was starting when the battery was under charging. Since I couldn't close the door lights, I removed the white relay in the fuse box. The lights closed, so the battery wasn't draining anymore. But this is when the started "died" (or whatever). So nothing else changed. The battery was draining but when full, the car was starting fine. I looked inside of the fuse box, in case, I would have unplug something. Didn't found anything.

But, like I said, I will go back under the car and test again.
 
Sacre bleu. this makes no sense !!!

Of course there has to be 12.5v at the 3 o'clock stud. As there should be bolted to that stud that big green wire that goes from there DIRECTLY to the battery. Hooking up a voltmeter there is just exactly like hooking up the meter directly to the battery terminals.

So....the red test lead hooked to that 3 o'clock stud ( and thusly to that big green wire ) ..with the black test lead to ground....HAS to give a reading of 12.5V.

To be sure...do you get 12.5V when putting your meter directly on the battery terminals ?
 
Nope. Nothing. Nada. Rien. Niente. I will start from there. Power at the battery, no power at the starter. Something is wrong.
 
You forgot "non" ...

That fat green wire comes directly from the + terminal of the battery. So go look at the battery terminal and see if it is broken off there or something bizarre like that....
 
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