Steve H and MaddMatt: Sales Opportunity for Engine Swap Kit

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Dan Sarandrea (Phila)

Waitin' On Parts...
Steve & Matt,

Judging by the amount of engine swap talk that goes on here at Xweb, I'd say that there is a market for a kit. As Steve posted there seems to be a lot of natural advantages to using the 4AGE engine & trans. I read that the C52 is a better durability choice than the C50.

Just throwing ideas around, I would say the ideal kit would include any pieces that require fabbing, and leaving out anything that can be readily sourced. I would say the ideal design would be one that (a) does not require welding skills and (b) does not do anything to the car that would prevent the reinstallation of the stock powerpack.

Just out of curiosity, which 4AGE and trans combo would produce the level of power needed to "properly" power an X without overmatching the rest of the car in stock condition?

EDIT: Thread broken out on its own from here: http://xwebforums.org/showpost.php?p=10907&postcount=15
 
Last edited:
Fully intend to, however....

Hi guys,

When we did the green Acura conversion we made jigs for most of the items that were needed, including the engine mounts etc.

While were pretty careful about documenting what we did, its not ready to be marketed.

I also think the 4AGE solution is a good one as well, but the same issue applies. We need to get a couple under our belt and beat the piss out of them before we can run out and start selling the home shop solution.

The last thing anyone would want is to buy a very expensive DIY kit and find themselves grinding. modding, or repairing pieces after the fact because it "wasn't quite right".

-M
 
Hey Matt-

I am planning on either visiting you this coming weekend, or on Tuesday the 17th. Hopefully over the weekend.
 
Alllllllrighty Then!

Granted it's a significant undertaking to engineer an engine swap kit that's "ready for prime time." The customer that wants 75+ more HP will probably need an engine swap.

I guess what I think people like me might be interested in is a way to bolt-in/bolt-on the amount of HP the car "should have come with" from FIAT. But not too much that we are now overmatching the driveline, brakes, or suspension, or giving up driveability or too much fuel economy.

Would that HP number be 100HP, or maybe 115HP? What would be the feasibility of putting together a bolt-on kit that adds between 25-40 HP to the stock FI car's 75HP?

I think I would buy one of those kits. Well, only if there was a lot of polished aluminum and shiny new zinc dichromate plating.:excited::lol:
 
Bolt-on stock kit to get 100HP

We've proven it a number of times, that a bolt-on 100HP kit (33% increase) equals:

Midwest Performance Cylinder Head w/35-75 Cam
Lightened Flywheel
Long-Tube Header and free-flow exhaust

Unfortunately, moving north of that number is where it gets hard.

A bolt-on turbo kit could push someone toward 130HP-150 reliably with some tweaks, but costs a ton since not only do you need the turbo and unique hardware items (manifold, runners, etc) , but you also need a programmable ECU and custom FI harness, new rings, head gasket, etc... Notice you don't see too many successful systems installed. (there are a few though...)

Select UNO Turbo components can help, but are not a complete solution. They are hard to find, and refurbing such a system to like-new will cost like new.

Supercharger would be cool, but no room to drive it.

Big fat bottle of nitrous anyone??!

- I think 150HP is the magic number for remarkable response with a tire spin when you want it.

- 200 is seriously impressive, smokes tires in 1st and 2nd, and gives the driver a chubbie.

- 250 borders on overkill for street use but will make you wet your pants if you have it.

At the end of the day, we've seen most customers settle for the 33%...

-M
 
Well then...

Question 1: Does this work for cars using the Bosch L-Jet injection?

Question 2: What is the price of this package?

:innocent:
 
What about a 2.2 turbo swap

There have been some previous posts with a dodge 2.2 swap. I had an 86 Dodge Daytona with a 2.2 turbo. The dealer added some mods from Direct Connection (Chryslers Performance catalog). The chip was changed, cam and a 2 1/2" exhaust. It came stock with Bosch injection. I think the stock with turbo got 160hp and with mods 200hp. Blowing head gaskets was an issue. I wonder if Direct Connection is still around.


Lou

Lou
 
100 HP package

Yes, the package I was referring to was an FI package, but same price for carb as well.

You can get more performance out of a carbed system due to the ability to bolt on bigger carbs, use a higher duration cam, etc. but it comes at the cost of street drive-ability, and the "higher than stock ECU FI" performance will cost more since the carbs are an optional component and vary in price with your choice. Single 34? - $100-$200. Single 40 DCN + manifold? = $200-$400. Dual 40 DCNs + manifold? = $400-800. Dual DCOEs + manifold $500-$1000.

The FI or Carb 33% package is typically under $2500

- $1300 - Cylinder head and 35/75 cam. Milled, ported, polished, assembled, shimmed and ready to bolt on
- $300 to $700 Headers and full exhaust, depending on what is available to work with.
- $125 to $200 - Flywheel depending on level of recondition
- $100 to $300 - Ancillaries (head gasket set, engine mount, tensioner, bolts, belt, tc.)

Carb package performance assumes use of a 32/32 or better carb.

-M
 
If you need another X for experimenting another Acura/Honda engine....

I can volunteer mine.....lol..It doesn`t have to be the big engine swap one.A nice JDM B16 or B18 will suffice!!! really!!....just let me know,...I`m in TX thou,......:headbang::eek::hypno::mallet:
 
Hi All:

Just another comment about modifying the Fiat 1500 motor. The more modifications that you make the more 'daily driver' drivability may suffer. If you stick in a Toyota or Honda motor that makes 120+ HP in stock form you get a nice combination of power, fuel economy, idle etc.

I have more experience with the twin cam Fiat motors (but I suspect the same is true for the X1/9) and I ran a Spider for years with dual IDF's, mild cams, 9:1 pistons and headers. Even in that relatively mild state of tune it was not a car I wanted to be stuck in commuter traffic with.

I agree with Matt and Steve that it may be a dis-service to supply a kit that is not tried and tested. However, perhaps a good place to start would just be with motor mounts and instructions on simply getting the engine into the chassis. That's usually where folks get hung up.

If there's anything I can do to help I'd be glad to lend a hand.

Chris

'87 X1/9
'82 Spider
15 other Fiats gone but not forgotten
 
2.2 turbo

I have done that swap, and seriously, if the parts were more readily available I would do it again. It was actually an easy swap but REAL tight! It came to be when my shelby charger got badly reareneded. It had a ported head, smaller turbo (spun up faster) and DirectConneciton Computer to name a few things. Like was noted with matt, 1st and second where toast as soon as boost hit. Stupid I know, but on wet pavement I could launch it in 5th (3500 rpm clutch dump) and it would happiliy spin untill about 50 mph when it could catch up.


odie
 
Power packages

Matt - I think it would be great to put together some "power packages". Just a Howto list of proven combos that you offer would provide a nice road map and perhaps a reality check. Myself I am looking for about 120hp out of my 1500 sohc. I choose that number as a target to have something to shoot for but my priorities are

1 reliability
2 budget
3 performance

I list budget second because I don't have $4000 to put in it at once but intend to purchase the right parts over time. So far I have collected a 1500 FI long block, PBS B3 camshaft (110' from a blank), IAP header, and PBS DOCE intake. Am I on the right track? I intend to use this car for autocross and as my hotrod. Do you think a ported head with stock vales sizes will do the job or will I need to go oversize. What about the bottom end. Will careful assembly with stock parts be reliable?
 
swap kit

It looks like a K20 kit would make most sense considering Matt's already done one and it sounds like he's likely working on more. The K20 is as good a choice as any if not the best, considering it's stock power output, reliability, availability, and aftermarket support. It even sits on the correct side of the engine bay and has a 6 speed! Seems like he'd be going backwards with the toyota motor even tho it would be a good swap...

I would spend good money for a bare bones K20 swap kit that included the difficulties like engine mounts,axles, shifter&cables, heater hoses, and wiring...whaddya think that would cost Matt?? $2500...$3000?? Most of us here could probably manage the header/exhaust/intake/install if such a kit were available....
 
the only drawback is the k 20,s a bit on the expensive side. b series is cheaper and has more then enough power and aftermarket. great reliability. my stock b puts out 185.
 
I LOVE B-series engines don't get me wrong (my daily driver is a 95 integra GSR) and yes they are cheaper...

that said being said, i would prefer a K20 because

1. a B-series would sit on the driver's side as opposed to the passenger side like a stock X engine which changes the balance of the car. This isn't a big deal to some people....but for me it is

2. A K20Z1 puts out 210hp/143tq in stock form...the best B18 puts down 200/128 and really isn't that much cheaper...(holy grail b18C type R status). you could build a comparable b20vtec or sleeved b18 vtec for MUCH cheaper if you know how and can build motors but from Matt's point of view....that's limiting customers.

On the other side of the coin...any old b18 can be had for dirt cheap, which would expand the grand total price range of the swap and possibly increase customer base....ahhh decisions

3. 6 speed

4. A swap like this would take me a long time with lots invested anyway...a couple thousand extra would seem insignificant. I'm one of those dudes that takes FOREVER to get anything done on my project cars and I would want to go all out the first time
 
The K series is a great choice for simply the stock HP and 6 speed, but after looking at Matt's swap presentation it seems like less than a great fit for the DIY'er. My biggest concern with the K is the amount of cutting required to make it fit, specifically the frame rail notching. Sure, it's not a big deal for somebody who has a good welder and is proficient with it (which I am), but for the average joe that swap seems a bit too complicated. Personally I'm going to start doing some measurements on a friend's 4age/C52 from his AW11 MR2.
 
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