Strange CV joint / diff / transmission noise.

dcioccarelli

dcioccarelli

Dominic Cioccarelli
Hi all,

I just got back to Munich from Zurich (about 350 KMs) and I seem to have a bit of a problem. On the way there, I noticed a "clunking" sound coming from the back of the car (right hand side) whenever took a slow, sharpish right hand curve (such as a curved exit or entry ramp). I made a mental note to check the CV joints on that side when I got back, although I have never heard of CV joints going on an X1/9 before (I did inspect the rubber gators which seemed to be o.k.).

The trip back was o.k. but as soon as I got about 50 KMs from Munich a loud screaming sound started to emanate from the back of the car. It was certainly not related to the engine and I have once experienced a similar sound from a broken bearing in the water pump. This was similar in that the sound would come and go, but seemed to be gearbox related (2nd gear was better than others when the sound was present). That said, I did experience the sound with the clutch in (although slightly softer) and even once in neutral.

My suspicion is that there is something amiss in the differential, as this could confirm both issues. Has anyone got any other suggestions? I would be very thankful if neither issue was gearbox related as I have no desire to pull it out :wink2:.

Cheers,
Dom.

PS: Serves me right for driving in winter...
 
Check hub nut

Hi Dom,

On my first X, a hub nut worked loose (ok, I hadn't secured it well enough).
The symptoms sounded quite like yours!
 
Check this.

It sounds like it may be your that your lower support for the transmission is too weak. If so ,it allows the large part of the axel shaft to hit the support frame under it. When shifting it will be noticed and sometimes on accleration also. If it gets worse then it will grind itself into the support and sound like a really bad grinding. This happened to me on a 300 km run also, as it was just at that point of giving out. You should be able to see it looking from above and down at the shaft.with a light. Simple check regardless.
 
!

Diagnosing sounds is really hard over the internet, BUT:

Screaming using comes from the throw-out bearing on the clutch, in my experience, (but could be any bearing, or even the speedo cable assembly).

I don't think the CV joints on the X clunk on corners. They clunk on front-wheel-drives because the drive shaft has to bend MORE while turning. The X doesn't. But who knows for sure. More likely a wheel bearing.

Failures in the transmission will make GRINDING or RUMBLING noises in a specific gear. Usually worn differentials result in high pitch whine at high speed.

I can't say what's making the noise, but I can say that the tranmission is NOT making the noise (based on my experience).
 
No cigar.

Ulix said:
Hi Dom,

On my first X, a hub nut worked loose (ok, I hadn't secured it well enough).
The symptoms sounded quite like yours!
Click to expand...

I've done this as well, although thankfully not this time (as I was doing about 160 Kph on the way back).

I'll keep looking....

Cheers,
Dom.
 
No visable wearing.

Jim Young said:
It sounds like it may be your that your lower support for the transmission is too weak. If so ,it allows the large part of the axel shaft to hit the support frame under it. When shifting it will be noticed and sometimes on accleration also. If it gets worse then it will grind itself into the support and sound like a really bad grinding. This happened to me on a 300 km run also, as it was just at that point of giving out. You should be able to see it looking from above and down at the shaft.with a light. Simple check regardless.
Click to expand...

I checked everything and there is no visible wear or rubbing anywhere. Thanks for the suggestion...

Cheers,
Dom.
 
eflexter said:
Diagnosing sounds is really hard over the internet, BUT:

Screaming using comes from the throw-out bearing on the clutch, in my experience, (but could be any bearing, or even the speedo cable assembly).

I don't think the CV joints on the X clunk on corners. They clunk on front-wheel-drives because the drive shaft has to bend MORE while turning. The X doesn't. But who knows for sure. More likely a wheel bearing.
Click to expand...

Speedo cable assembly is a possibility as I was "playing" with that end of the cable during the trip to try and reduce the clicking at the speedo end. On the other hand, the "playing" only consisted of removing and reinserting the cable and tightening the collar.

Could you elaborate a bit more on which part of the speedo could cause a very loud screaming / screeching sound? As much as this ideas intrigues me the only thing that would make me suspect something else is that at one point I witnessed the sound whilst stopped (well, nearly). I'd imagine that a speedo drive related issue should be consistent with road speed. The throw out bearing is indeed a possible culprit.

Good point concerning the wheel bearing, although I have never experienced this type of failure before with a wheel bearing. Could well be that the two noises are completely unrelated and I have just had a bad day...

Thanks for the help.

Cheers,
Dom.
 
4-speed or 5-speed?

Assuming that you've eliminated bad motor mounts and other things that might the driveshafts or suspension components to hit something else, then:

If 4-speed, trouble with the inboard tripode joints is a possibility. Considering how much of a mess they can make if they fail and spew their little needle bearings into the differential... You'd want to check that.

Whether 4-speed or 5-speed, about the first thing a failing CV joint does is make a clunking noise on turns, so that's what I'd suspect.
 
Aaaaarrrrgggghh, hey Eric..........!!

EricH said:
...Considering how much of a mess they can make if they fail and spew their little needle bearings into the differential... You'd want to check that....
Click to expand...

........is this something that does happen on 4 speed tripode-joint X's??

Ye Gods, I can only IMAGINE what a helluva mess this would make in the diff internals!! :eek:
I haven't seen any posts/comments on this subject on X-web before, but that's not to say it has never occured to some VERY unfortunate X-webber's little pride and joy.

Do you have any personal experiences/tips/symptoms what to look out for on this particular subject, please?

cheers, Ian - NZ
 
5 speed

EricH said:
Assuming that you've eliminated bad motor mounts and other things that might the driveshafts or suspension components to hit something else, then:

If 4-speed, trouble with the inboard tripode joints is a possibility. Considering how much of a mess they can make if they fail and spew their little needle bearings into the differential... You'd want to check that.

Whether 4-speed or 5-speed, about the first thing a failing CV joint does is make a clunking noise on turns, so that's what I'd suspect.
Click to expand...

I can't see any rubbing anywhere so I will be taking a closer look at the inner CV joints as soon as I get a chance.

Cheers,
Dom.
 
Yep, that can happen.....

But typically that sort of failure happens under conditions of extreme duress. Like breaking the outer end of the axle at the hub, allowing the axle to flop around and the crossmember to bend. It happened to us on the Dallara Icsunonove racer.

Each of the three rollers is retained by a spring ring/clip. Typically very durable and secure. If the needles are liberated, it is not necessarily extremely serious. They tend to fall to the low part of the case and stick to the magnets. You will hear a clunk from the inner end of the axle if it happens. Serious clean out work is indicated. Depends on how well you like the car whether you pull the transaxle or not.

The tripodes themselves are not tremendously expensive and are easy to change, requiring only removal of an external retaining ring.

Ciao,
 
Never happened to one of my cars, and...

I doubt that it happens very often.

But if you try search the old xweb 1.0 you'll find a thread somewhere. I once tore down two 128 trannies that I bought as cores and both were full of stray needle bearings. One diff looked pretty good, the other diff had gouged and nicked gears, looked like hell.

I can't imagine being happy driving a car with stray needles floating around in there, and it's pretty easy to check after you've eliminated the outboard CVs, wheel bearings, motor mounts, and the like... The driveshafts are coming out to look at the tranny and clutch anyways.
 
!

I guess the next step would be to better describe WHEN the sound occurs. Sounds like it can happen while moving, and while NOT moving. Am I right? That rules out lots of things.

Why did you say that it wasn't coming from the engine? Does the sound fluctuate when you rev the engine while in neutral?

Have you checked the tranny fluid lately? Check for metal shavings. Are your belts tight (or TOO tight leading to bearing failure)?

I'd still suspect the throwout bearing. But it's also possible for ball bearings to "flat-spot", though I've never witnessed it in a tranmission. Only on dry bearings (like wheel or throwout bearings).

Make sure your tranny has oil in it!
 
Dom, I had similar symptoms in my 5 speed - the forward bolt on the lower engine mount had stripped the thread and lowred about 1/2 inch and under acceleration would let the left rear inner cv rub on the mount although it didn't show obvious signs of wear!!!!
Lappy
 
I have had (and still have) a very similar problem with my 5 speed. The driveshaft appears to float along it's axis and runs against the hub (RHS only).

So far:
1. Engine mounts have all checked out A-OK (minimal wear/play)
2. New CV joint on outer
3. CV joint assembly checked, rechecked and checked again

Tighly repacking the bearings worked good for about 50km.

I still get the noise of the driveshaft hitting the hub when going over bumps. It has been suggested I look at getting a wheel alignment to see if this resolves the problem - as the rear wheel angles do not appear to match.

See photos of the grinding on the hub and driveshaft.
4124304410_4470ed8cb9.jpg

4124303700_35d1ff0e03.jpg
 
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