Surprise project for tomorrow

al_ngl

al_ngl

Resident Boilermaker
So on Friday I was driving home from my classes and I hit my brakes hard at one point, and then lost all pedal pressure. I got home and found what I had figured- a broken brake line in the back. So guess what my project is for Fall Break? Anyway, I guess there's probably special information I need for doing the brake lines. Since my jack won't get under the car and I don't have any boards to drive on to get more clearance, I need to buy a low-profile jack and a couple more stands while I'm at it. Does anyone know what fittings I need for the lines? I figure I need to measure the line length though and inspect the other lines to decide which to replace. I guess I probably should replace all of them, but I probably won't unless if they are all bad. Also, is it possible to bleed my brakes by myself without any sort of bleeding pump?
Thanks,
Alex
 
You'll want flare nut wrenches for the lines, not sure which size. I got a metric set at NAPA for not too much a while back. My smallish hydraulic floor jack doesn't quit fit under the jack points on my X either but I found just simply pushing up on the bumper with my shoulder while positioning the jack took enough pressure off the suspension to allow it slide in place. Try that once. Your brake LINES should be fine, the metal bits, it's the rubber hoses between the calipers and the body that can break down internally, causing "one way check valve" like symptoms. You CAN bleed by yourself but it's infinitely easier with a friend. I've done it by holding the brake pedal down with a length of wood while I ran to the caliper and back but, find a helper! Bribe some neighborhood punk kid with a ride afterward.
 
Well to determine if it's the metal lines or rubber:
The dripping brake fluid is coming from almost the direct center of the car, right in front of the engine. I figured this was far enough from the wheels that it shouldn't be rubber. I suppose I'll find out after I get the car in the air.
 
Some answers

There is a single hard line from the master cylinder back to a union on the front wall of the engine compartment, in the middle. One line to each rear brake from that union. It sounds as if your leak is in that general area.

For the brake hard lines, you will need a 10mm flare wrench. If the nuts are at all recalcitrant, you'll want to clamp vice-grips over the end of the wrench so it really grabs the nut.

Try hard not to mangle the flare nuts, they're a strange thread and if you do mangle one, you'll need to order from Matt or Chris. The brake line itself you can get from any NAPA store, and any brake shop or machinist can do the bubble flare. But you won't find pre flared lines with the right fittings

Bleeding brakes is like any other car. Either it's a two-person job, one on the pedal and one at the bleeder, or you need a pressure or vacuum bleeder, or you need to drop a few tens of dollars on a set of speedbleeders.
 
Some more answers

picture470o.jpg
Hi Alex. You have my sympathy. I too have an '81 on which I had your exact problem. I can almost guarantee what happened to you.

Look carefully at the following photo. It is just like Eric described. Where my line failed (due to rust) was where the line was clipped onto the firewall. Those foldover brackets trapped moisture and rotted out the line. The problem was compounded by being covered by the firewall insulation panel which also trapped in the moisture.

Replacing this line will be a real bitch with the engine in place. I determined it was easier to yank the engine out first!. But maybe if you can get the car high enough you can do it from underneath. At least you'll know from my photo what you looking for. I don't think you can get to it from the top.

At the time, I was still able to get new Fiat O.E. lines. I ended up replacing all the lines. I guess you will have to get some universal brake line and flare the ends yourself. I have been told the flare required is unlike japanese flare but actually the same as domestic flare. I know that VW lines are easily available in a variety of lengths premade but don't know if the flare and thread is the same as Fiat. Maybe someone out there knows?

I hope after reading this that if anyone out there has their engine out that they take a couple of minutes to peel back the brake line brackets, clean it up a bit, and smear a bunch of grease between the clips and the lines. It could save you a whole pile of grief down the road!

And Alex, yes you will need a 10mm flare nut wrench. And I hope you don't have any big projects due during your school break! This could take you a while.

Let us know how you make out.

Goodluck, Doug
img823
 
Thanks for the tip

Doug, thanks for the tip on the line. It is great that in such short order someone can come up with the photo and expeierence to assist on a matter like this.
Bob
 
Thanks for all the help so far guys. I'm not so sure dropping the engine is something I should risk for something like brake lines. Hopefully I can get the car high enough as you said. The jack stands I have already go up about 2.5 feet, maybe I can get more that size. I'd hate to be without the X for any longer than absolutely necessary, and I could see dropping/putting in the engine having some possible delays. Especially my first time pulling the engine I don't want to be in a hurry. Now if I had an extra set of hands... but everyone I know who would help is out of town or busy:sad: Anyway, I'll see how it looks tomorrow and probably change my mind several times on how to attack it.
 
Jacking the rear end... if not aware...

There is a flat metal plate, about dead center, as you look in from the rear of the car. You can raise the whole back end there and the ground clearance is usually much better, unless your car has been lowered.
 
rx1900 said:
At the time, I was still able to get new Fiat O.E. lines.
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Matt and Chris will likely have them, I know Matt had them used a few years back, I bought a few but found it to be easier and faster to get them made up locally.
[/QUOTE]

I have been told the flare required is unlike japanese flare but actually the same as domestic flare. I know that VW lines are easily available in a variety of lengths premade but don't know if the flare and thread is the same as Fiat. Maybe someone out there knows?
Click to expand...
It's a standard metric bubble flare, but unfortunatelythe threads on the fitting are somewhat non-standard. VW lines don't work (or at least the ones that NAPA matched to wouldn't work) - the problem is the thread on the fitting. So when I had my lines made up locally, I reused the fitting from the old lines - cut the old lines, slid the fittings off, took them to the machine shop that did the flaring for me.

I highly recommend the tech sections at www.fedhillusa.com for anyone trying this for the first time.
 
Alex if you need a low profile jack and stands just go over to my house and tell Lewin you need to barrow them, and if you ned help ill be back in town tonight so should be free tomorrow
 
Well, I drove around today getting jack and stand prices and finding out by some miracle if anyone carried the right fittings. I bought a couple jack stands and went back home, pushing the car to roll it up on some 2x4's, then lifting up on the fender and sliding the jack underneath with my foot.

I get the car up off the ground and crawl under to find brake fluid residue droplets all over the place, but low down mostly. I looked at the three lines and the two that go to the wheels look like they have been replaced at some point. The third line running from the front, however, was rather original looking. But by looking I couldn't tell where the leak was.

So I used the jack lever to press the brake pedal while I lied next to the car and watched the line. Fluid was spraying straight up from the line like a fountain, falling down in a shower on everything below. I'm not sure whether to be relieved or upset that the leak is in the front-back line and not one of the lines to the wheels. It seems I won't have to drop the engine, but on the other hand the line goes through a passage (to the interior?) and might be a royal PITA to set up, I don't know.

Where do I go from here? I feel like I only really need to replace the line that broke as it looks far worse than the others. Should I just order two fittings and bend/flare my own line from a store? How is that line run through the car? Do I have to tear apart the interior to get to it as it appears to me, or is there an easy way to access it?
 
The line ...

runs for the most part outside of the tunnel. Take the driver's seat out and roll the carpet over to the passenger side. You'll have the brake line and the clutch line clipped to the outside of the tunnel. Then at the rear it pokes through into the engine compartment.

If you splice, do not use a compression fitting. Flare nuts and a flare nut coupler to put in a spliced section. Good part about that is you could use a more common flare nut and straight through coupler at the splice versus matching the odd-ball Fiat size.
 
That center line gets the most abuse

al_ngl said:
Where do I go from here? I feel like I only really need to replace the line that broke as it looks far worse than the others. Should I just order two fittings and bend/flare my own line from a store? How is that line run through the car? Do I have to tear apart the interior to get to it as it appears to me, or is there an easy way to access it?
Click to expand...

So it's not amazing that it's the one that went. Replacing the whole thing is best. However, if the part inside the car still looks good, you can cut it and use a flare union from Fedhill to replace just the part downstream from the cut. That wil save you much misery at the master cylinder end.... But If you go this way, DO NOT, in the name of god, use a compression fitting, nor anything that is not specifically designed for brake lne use.
 
Matt has graciously offered to send me a replacement line. There are definitely reasons why I'll always go to Midwest Bayless first when looking for X1/9s and parts.

I did some inspecting of the car, being on stands and all, and I noticed that I get a click noise, a sort of lag, when rotating the left rear wheel and then changing direction. I do not get it on the opposite wheel. Is this sign of a joint going out? There has always been a little vibration at 50-55mph intermittently which Matt said could be a joint or a wheel balance/round issue. Just a question while it's fresh in my mind.
 
Hi again Alex

Looks like you are a lucky man. Seems like the failure point I assumed had already occured on your car and the two cross lines to the wheels had been replaced by a previous owner. Sorry if I led you down the wrong path!

As I'm sure you know by now, the line entering the junction block goes in one piece all the way up to the master cylinder. It runs inside the car under the carpet tucked up against the shift tunnel, only leaving the interior about a foot from the rear junction block.

Removing this line at the junction block will probably be difficult due to rust and restricted axxess. If you can't undo it with your flare nut end wrench then just snip the line close to the nipple and use a 6 point 10mm deep socket from below.

Although Matt already kindly sent you a another line - I assume it was a used one? - there is a guy on Ebay right now selling a brand new NOS front to rear line for $37. Just search "Fiat brake line" and it will come up. I would post a link if I knew how.

So Alex, good luck with you repair and let us know how you make out.

Foe the rest of you out there, please take this thread as a warning. As I - and Alex - have found out - X1/9 brake lines do tend to rust out. Anywhere they are exposed to the elements under the car, or held in a bracket or clip, clean them up and treat them to some rustproofing or grease. They can be a real pain to replace and you probably don't want a line popping when you hit your brakes hard - X1/9 sheetmetal is also a pain to replace!

Cheers, Doug
 
Another Surprise

Well I got my brake line from Matt yesterday (after my neighbor told me a FedEx guy had stopped a couple times before, unbeknownst to me). Anyway, I pulled my driver's seat and peeled back the carpet and the brake line looks absolutely pristine, flawless. All of the corrosion is outside of the cabin:wacko:. None even fades into the cabin, it just stops dead at the grommet thing.

Whatever, I guess this is a good thing, right? I figure I can just cut the existing line about a foot inboard or so, and just replace the bit from the seat belt bolt to the T in the engine bay pretty easy. Does this sound good?

I'm sure you all know this, but the rust issues on these cars are, erm, perplexing. I have a few spots that look terrible but are pretty darn strong, and I have surface-type rust like in my engine bay side tubs that when poked lightly with a screwdriver will push through. Structurally though, I think I have nothing to worry about. Having the car in the air for the first time just reveals so much more about the car than you knew before. It's rather interesting.
 
Rust on the X begins as surface spots, progressing to holes and then the rust attacks the inner structures.

Any rust becomes apparent as the X typically becomes rusty on the outside, but could be OK on the inside.

There are many frame on body cars where the bodies look rust free, but the frames are literally dissolving underneath the "rust free" body.

To check, lift the X chassis up on one wheel or single front or rear jack point, then open & close Both doors. If the doors bind significantly, there is likely structural rust damage, if not, the rust is mostly surface and non-structural even if there are visible rust holes where light can pass.

BTW, most cars from this era will not pass the "lift up one wheel or chassis point and open/close all the doors" test. If the doors are opened on some cars from the era when the X was built, it can crack the windshield.. I have seen this happen.

Says much about the X chassis.

Bernice

al_ngl said:
I'm sure you all know this, but the rust issues on these cars are, erm, perplexing. I have a few spots that look terrible but are pretty darn strong, and I have surface-type rust like in my engine bay side tubs that when poked lightly with a screwdriver will push through. Structurally though, I think I have nothing to worry about. Having the car in the air for the first time just reveals so much more about the car than you knew before. It's rather interesting.
Click to expand...
 
Well, I got the line disconnected from the Tee. It threaded out easily, once I fought with the tee for a long time and moved the fuel pump out of the way for my wrench, and held the coolant hose out of the way. I still haven't spliced the lines together since I don't have a tubing cutter and don't want to risk bad flares from just cutting the brake line.

I did look around for my bleeders, but I couldn't find them. Where are they? Do I have to remove the dust shield to get to them or what?

I figure even though the front and back brakes are separated, I should probably bleed front and back to get new fluid cycled through. I bought synthetic DOT3/4 fluid, is this safe for our brakes?
Thanks everyone who has helped so far.
 
I use a synthetic for all of my cars, I use Valvoline's.

In the past I used to use Castrol LM but changed about a decade ago as I noted the LM very quickly changing color in even my newer cars.

Some like ATE's products which can offer more performance but can require more maintenance in my experience (more regular changes then I tend to want to do).

I change all of my fluid every two years on all of my cars regardless of use. If I do a track day I change it before and after (often along with the pads).
 
If you are talking broken rubber brake line, you should probably change all the rubber lines, if you really want a nice firm pedal change them to stainless braided lines. Soak the hard line to soft line junctions with PB blaster something similar for a day or two before you start, and it's much easier to take off all the wheels and have the car on jack stands.

Chris
Oakland, CA
 
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