The X1/9's purpose in life, just an observation

Just to clarify, this thread was not about a "new" X1/9 but remaking the old X1/9 with modern materials and technology. I know that sounds like a narrow distinction but it is a significant one. ;)

Regarding the younger population and cars. SEMA is all about the automotive industry and they are very involved in building the future for it. Every year they conduct several studies and track trends in the industry. As such they recognized there was a decreasing number of automotive enthusiasts in recent history so they began several new programs to stimulate more interest for the younger crowd. I've noticed that both of the comments made in posts #19 and 20 are true; some of that population has little interest in cars, and some of them are very strong enthusiasts. Personally I think it may come down to the size of the population when viewed by age group. The "baby boomer" generation was a huge spike in the total population (number wise) and with that spike there has been a wave of increased involvement in many things (including cars), when compared to any generation before or after them. In other words, respectively there are fewer young people now than there was in the baby boomer generation, so there are fewer car lovers...just as there are fewer 'anything' lovers. But if you look at some of the custom car builds being done by the young enthusiasts (for example the "young gun" category at the SEMA show) they are just as good as any from prior generations.
 
I did not say that the young guys were not interested in sports cars at all (if you were referring to my post), simply they don't all have the cash to buy a 70 thousand dollar car. Even a 40 thousand dollar car is a tough go for people with student loans and a tough prospect of finding a job. Cost of living has gone up substantially but wages have not increased to match. Now I live in Canada and the divide between Canada and the U.S. seems to be as wide as I've ever seen. An end unit town house I could throw a rock at just sold for over 1 million. That's insane. I thought what I paid for my house was crazy now it's "worth" 3 times that.

"In the first quarter of 2020, Canadian real estate prices advanced 29 times the rate of American home prices. This was attributed to the diverse array of fiscal and monetary policies employed by Ottawa since the Great Recession." -Stolen from the WWW.

Now costs in both countries are different, health care being notable but just pointing out a huge change is costs. My experience of course will differ from someone in a different city let alone another country. I can point to the sales of the Pontiac Sunfire, cheapest car to own for years and there is lots on the road. If the choice was a Sunfire or a more modern X, there would not even have been a thought for me.

Now typically the North American market has been subject to "fast cars" meaning 1/4 mile times not skid pad numbers, lead sleds all the way. Still there have always been those who like to turn both left and right with some speed.

I think one issue with modern cars is the lack of ability to change them Stereo shops are drying up because car radios can't really be replaced, they are part of the car now. Steering wheels have air bags, as do seats and dashes. Another jab at the Honda Fit is it's motor is almost impossible to get more power out of. The late 80's Hondas could be heavily modded, now it's all engine swaps. I think the young guys are losing out.


Yeah, that post was all over the place.
 
@ricar, I was just referring to general comments about younger people and the interest level in sports cars...nothing specific really. ;)

But your point is a good one. The prices of cars and the cost of living have gone up so much out of proportion to wages.
However I've also seen young guys driving cars that are much more expensive than you'd expect for their age (and appearance). But often they live in poverty-like conditions and are deeply in debt, spending their entire paycheck each week trying to keep the repo man away. At least that's what I see around here. When I was still in SoCal you also saw young guys driving really expensive cars. But their parents gave the car to them for graduating high school. I guess the rich peoples version of a "participation trophy". :rolleyes:
 
Yeah, I see both of those scenarios as well. Even back in the 90's the local low income apartments had the nicest cars in the parking lot.
 
My big issue with modern "muscle" cars (Mustang, Camaro, Challenger), whether or not they can be considered "sports" cars, is the godawful visibility out of them. Very high beltlines, narrow slits for side and rear windows, high cowls and bulging hoods. It must be like driving one of those armored personnel carriers or a tank. Not only would I feel claustrophobic in such cars, I believe they are legitimately unsafe, and I see every day on my commutes how these things are driven - it ain't pretty.

As for what constitutes a sports car, that's very subjective, I think the answer is like what Supreme Court Justice Potter Stewart said about pornography: "I know it when I see it". For me, a rough definition is smallish/light-ish, two seats, and available manual transmission. Too big/heavy and I think of it as a "GT", if it has a usable rear seat it's a "coupe", automatic transmission and it's a "poseur" (had to write that for you, Carl 😄).

That's just me, your kilometreage may vary.
 
Once you get up into the Ferrari/Lamborghini/etc. world, they're not "sports cars" any more, they're "exotics" or "supercars". See how easily I dug myself out of that hole, Carl? 😁

Besides, I'm not allowed to talk to any Ferrari guys (except Dave W. and Tim M.), because drivers of mere Fiats are not worthy.
 
@Dr.Jeff, to respond more directly to your original post (you had to know this one would drift; right? 😉), I was reading this article the other day about the Maxton Rollerskate. The part about trying to compete with the Miata (quoted below) jumped out at me. That seems like the single biggest hurdle facing any attempt to make a new X1/9.

The additional hurdle with producing what you're describing--a "Factory Restomod" X1/9--is that used X's are still so dang cheap! (Relatively speaking. Unless they're #001 of a special-edition model, apparently...). If a buyer had the cash and didn't want to get their hands dirty, I'm guessing they could buy a really nice X for $10k and pay someone $40k (or less?) to do a K20 swap and freshen up the interior/suspension as needed. I don't know anything about industry economics, but I'm guessing that it would be hard to build a Factory Restomod and get it into a customer's hands for under $50k. So if you wanted to go this route, you'd be trying to outcompete Miata/4C/Elise (for people who don't already love X1/9s specifically) and also trying to outcompete actual X1/9s (for people who do).


From the article:

"For about $14,000, enthusiasts could buy a brand-new Miata. This car, which some called the British roadster that the Brits never built, featured a clever top that actually worked, roll-up windows and comfortable seating. It was supported by a worldwide dealer network and a growing aftermarket for performance parts. Maxton had planned to build and sell 50 Rollerskates a year. It took them three years to build the first 50 cars, and not all of them found buyers. In the end, sales were so slow that Sutherland gave away a few cars to managers of his lumber yards in Colorado and Wyoming."
 
JNewm said:
@Dr.Jeff, to respond more directly to your original post (you had to know this one would drift; right? 😉), I was reading this article the other day about the Maxton Rollerskate. The part about trying to compete with the Miata (quoted below) jumped out at me. That seems like the single biggest hurdle facing any attempt to make a new X1/9.

The additional hurdle with producing what you're describing--a "Factory Restomod" X1/9--is that used X's are still so dang cheap! (Relatively speaking. Unless they're #001 of a special-edition model, apparently...). If a buyer had the cash and didn't want to get their hands dirty, I'm guessing they could buy a really nice X for $10k and pay someone $40k (or less?) to do a K20 swap and freshen up the interior/suspension as needed. I don't know anything about industry economics, but I'm guessing that it would be hard to build a Factory Restomod and get it into a customer's hands for under $50k. So if you wanted to go this route, you'd be trying to outcompete Miata/4C/Elise (for people who don't already love X1/9s specifically) and also trying to outcompete actual X1/9s (for people who do).


From the article:

"For about $14,000, enthusiasts could buy a brand-new Miata. This car, which some called the British roadster that the Brits never built, featured a clever top that actually worked, roll-up windows and comfortable seating. It was supported by a worldwide dealer network and a growing aftermarket for performance parts. Maxton had planned to build and sell 50 Rollerskates a year. It took them three years to build the first 50 cars, and not all of them found buyers. In the end, sales were so slow that Sutherland gave away a few cars to managers of his lumber yards in Colorado and Wyoming."
Click to expand...
I agree about the pricing issue. Actually the "replica" cars that I was thinking of are not "factory" remakes. That notion sort of crept into the thread but isn't the same thing. The new laws I'm referencing are for small independent companies that make cars based on existing ones. Some start from scratch and fabricate everything new (e.g. original Ford Bronco, early Mustang or Camaro, Land Rover, Cobras, Minis, etc), while others actually start with a original car and completely remake it (e.g. Porsche 911s, Jag E-types, etc). They are not just restorations so usually they cannot use the original title due to the extent of the redesign/modification. Therefore a new title is issued, but that's where the problem is; there are categories of titles for things like one-offs ("custom" prototype builds) or kit cars ("special construction"), but these do not fall into those definitions. And when smog laws are part of the equation it becomes almost impossible to manufacture a legal vehicle of this type. At least until now. I'll try to find a article about the laws to help describe it.
 
I did not find the article from SEMA that discussed the new law, I'm sure it will come up again. But here is one that's related to some of the "restomod" companies:
www.goodwood.com

The eight best restomods (List) | GRR

Bringing iconic classics up to modern build and performance standards…
www.goodwood.com www.goodwood.com
 
A guy here in Sweden was sued in court to pay 5 million SEK (600000 USD) for making Jaguar C-Type replicas.
I think you can autotranslate the article below from swe to eng.
www.expressen.se

Karl Magnusson byggde replika av Jaguar – tvingas nu betala fem miljoner

Det tog Karl Magnusson nio år att bygga sin drömbil – en replika av en Jaguar C-type från 1951. Men drömmen förvandlades snabbt till en mardröm. Nyligen dömdes han och hans hustru för upphovsrättsligt intrång och tvingas nu att betala biljättens rättegångskostnader – fem miljoner kronor. – Vi...
www.expressen.se www.expressen.se
 
Bjorn Nilson said:
A guy here in Sweden was sued in court to pay 5 million SEK (600000 USD) for making Jaguar C-Type replicas.
I think you can autotranslate the article below from swe to eng.
www.expressen.se

Karl Magnusson byggde replika av Jaguar – tvingas nu betala fem miljoner

Det tog Karl Magnusson nio år att bygga sin drömbil – en replika av en Jaguar C-type från 1951. Men drömmen förvandlades snabbt till en mardröm. Nyligen dömdes han och hans hustru för upphovsrättsligt intrång och tvingas nu att betala biljättens rättegångskostnader – fem miljoner kronor. – Vi...
www.expressen.se www.expressen.se
Click to expand...
I heard about that. And there have been several other lawsuits for things like this. Porsche and Ferrari are two of the common ones. This is one of the interesting things about the new law that allows replicas to be titled. I guess the assumption is the car maker has obtained all permission to make such replicas before looking to get titles for them.
 
Just saw another article about a "remake". However this one is from the factory, intended to be a reproduction, or "continuation" of the original car. But it kind of surprises me:
www.goodwood.com

How Bentley is building 12 'new' Blowers | GRR

It’s the first time that a prewar racecar has been brought back as part of a continuation series…
www.goodwood.com www.goodwood.com
 
Here is another company that is remaking cars. What's interesting with them is they have various approaches, as we have discussed. Some of theirs are based on original vehicles - as in you provide the old car and they remanufacture it with stock restored bodies but modern mechanicals. Some are are their interpretation of a modern concept based on the original vehicle. And others are completely made from scratch, with all new materials and modern components.

Here's one example:
www.hagerty.com

Shark attack: GTO Engineering's new V-12 is called the Squalo - Hagerty Media

GTO Engineering, the small British firm behind the sensational 250 SWB and 250 TR Revival Ferraris has named its first in-house design Squalo—Italian for shark.
www.hagerty.com www.hagerty.com

There are links within that article that reference some of their other creations.
 
As a youngin' myself (19) this thread has been entertaining to watch as a fly on the wall. I'd say I agree that a small population of us are car people. At my school of 30,000, the biggest car club on campus which is run by many of my friends has about 50-70 active members- though there's 300 in the group chat. Whether this has changed from how things used to be, I'm not sure because I wasn't alive in the "used to be" time period.

The biggest disappointment I've had with the car culture of my age group and a bit older (about 18-25) is that it seems it's much more about having a car that looks cool than something that's genuinely great to drive.

"Somewhat car people" tend to veer towards hatches such as the Golf GTI, and V6..." Muscle" cars whereas most sane car enthusiasts tend to gravitate towards older BMWs, catfish Camaros, miatas, and Subarus.

Quirky car people such as myself, and I imagine y'all, end up with Fiats. I am of the belief that it takes a specific type of person to own a Fiat...most Fiat owners I've met have been quirky, kinda different than most, and a lot of fun to be around. There's a certain level of generosity and friendship in the Fiat communities that's genuinely awesome. It takes the type of person who can genuinely appreciate the joy these little cars bring, and work with them and be understanding of when the car needs some love.


Not really on topic...just adding to a previous point. Sorry.
 
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Back on original topic: Pure driving such as in the X is a thing of the past...cars without power steering, power brakes, ABS, traction control, driving modes, backup camera, lane departure, 10-speed auto transmission, super charged turbo's, high tech tires, torque vectoring, 4-wheel steering...etc will only be made in very limited quantities. Remaking the X would certainly need to include some of these features as product managers would demand it. Unfortunately, the 4C is the closest thing we will ever see to a modern X and will be forever just out of the reach of the average "pure driving" fan.

(personal opinion coming...there is absolutely no intent to insult or call out anyone regarding my opinion)

One more thing...I have kept quiet when Mustangs and Camaros are brought in to the discussion. I have owned and am faithful to both Fiats and Mustangs. My Mustang GT 6-speed is a great car. It is in no way an X-1/9, but then nothing is. Not a sports car, the 'Stang is a true GT that, when driven responsibly, can be as satisfying to drive as anything on the road. (I'm stepping off my soapbox)

I'm glad to see that this forum as some youth injected into it. One thing we can all agree on is: If it puts a smile on your face...keep doing it!
 
An X "repop" sounds like something we Fiat geeks would love to see/own. But if you were to remanufacture an X, I believe it would be an extremely limited market. Love to see it, don't get me wrong. But the X is so quirky, even cars and coffee guys are hard pressed to identify it. Our experiences over nearly 50 years with this little beast has made us the X fans we are. That's a huge part of the X character, whether we admit it or not. After all the hoop-la from this web site and a few others, you'd still be left with an obscure little car few would understand and even fewer would buy. It took basically a dozen and a half years just to sell 150K X1/9's world wide. Ford took over 20,000 mustang orders the FIRST DAY it was available. A new, faster, sleeker X simply wouldn't be the little turd we get such a kick out of owning. If 3 generations of MR2, Porsche 914's, Boxters, Alfa 2C's, and several Lotus cars don't prove limited appeal...I don't know what else to say. Speedyfiat pretty much hit the nail on the head with his comments. And BTW, liked seeing Jonohhh's comments. I forward a motion to the board that he retain his man-card.
 
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