Time to replace brakes. Upgraded to Wilwood big brake from Allison

dragonsgate said:
As some of you might know my car is electric with a series wound DC motor.
That means I have no compression like an ICE and no regen like an Ac motor to help slow me down so the only thing between me and God is the brakes.

When I first did my car I had 1134 pounds of Led acid batteries stuffed in it.
The curb weight was 3100 pounds plus me and a passenger making the total weight around 3500 pounds.

I drove my lead sled X for about two years that way.
Other than feeling the extra weight in the turns it stopped on down hill slopes fine and from a 60 mile an hour panic stop test it was more than satisfactory.
In fact with a hard braking get little or no tire squeal.
I have whittled the curb down to 2500 pounds and can now get the tires so screech in a hard stop.

Early on I played with the idea of an after market brake setup but have been driving hilly roads 18 years with stock brakes and pads bought through NAPA and no problems so figure I have saved money that otherwise would have been wasted.

IMO,If you have good pads calipers and M/C that is bled properly your X should have excellent stopping.
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I recall a European mag road test in ~1974 that recorded a 112 ft stopping distance from 60mph with the X, and that was with the 145-13 tires.
 
Typically with older "vintage" cars, the tires were by far the most limiting factor in braking (and other performance areas). Today's tires are vastly improved, especially if you have converted to 15" (or larger) diameter and much wider wheels and tires. Brake pad compounds have also improved significantly. Overall performance in terms of acceleration and speed may be drastically higher if you have a modified engine or engine swap. In most areas traffic is much more of a concern these days compared to 40 years ago. As is the behavior of other drivers. Now we have access to lots of "track day" or "autocross" types of events. And lots of other differences exist compared to when the X1/9 was originally designed. On the other hand, with respect to the braking system, the things that haven't changed (in most cases) are the rotors, calipers, and master cylinder.

My point is the performance of the braking system, and what is considered an acceptable level of performance, is very dependant on many factors. Indeed the stock brakes are more than sufficient for many X's and their drivers. But not for all of them. For that matter many of us (at least for myself) like to "improve" or modify things just for the sake of doing so - even if it isn't necessary. So in a thread like this one, where the original poster has stated his intent to improve the braking capability of his car, I'm happy to continue discussing what CAN be accomplished more than IF he should do it. No offense to anyone in any way, shape, or form - love you all. I only say these things because threads like this often tend to go very sideways with arguments over the original design and engineering of the X1/9 and how it shouldn't be altered. Let's not spoil that fun. ;)
 
Well, maybe there is something flawed on the rat X brakes even with every thing new, MC, ss hoses and now MWB performance pads. I just got tags for the 77 which has had the same all new brake parts only with green stuff pads and I'll be able to make a direct comparison on brakes very soon. My experience is Fiat brakes, with appropriate pads seem to work better at track days than slogging around the suburbs, odd as that sounds.
 
Wasn't saying a mod shouldn't be done.
I have done lots of unnecessary things to vehicles just to see how it worked of to satisfy a personal desire to do so.
Just stating that X1/9 brakes are good.
It is hard not to end up writing a book if you try to get all the variables in.
 
dragonsgate said:
Wasn't saying a mod shouldn't be done.
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I wasn't implying anything, nor directing it to anyone. More of a proactive attempt to avert the usual banter that brake upgrade discussions seem to bring.
Hey, if anyone gets an award for modifying the X, I think it would the guy that turned it into an electric vehicle. ;)
 
To Carl: a bias towards 124 experience may leave you always feeling there’s a little lacking in X1/9 brakes. On the flipside, my friends with an X1/9 bias tend to feel like 124s are over-braked.

Would a DIY Wilwood be a viable option? I have NOT searched this here (because this customization is not on tr short list for any of my Fiat), but if I were thinking of it, I’d expect to find wonderful detail here lacking only photos due to Photobucket’s re-whatever. Good luck with whatever you do & I’ll look forward to hearing about it!
 
If I ever did a brake upgrade and I could find some it would be theses puppies.
Not just for better braking but the trick way they flip out.
turbo.jpg
 
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Those are Fiat Uno Turbo front calipers. Currently on the 74' with Ferodo street pads. These have been on the 74' X for a while now. Absolutely problem free with significantly improved stopping power (38mm piston rear brake calipers) and heat dissipation.

Bernice


Dr.Jeff said:
Which calipers are those?
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Jim Fierce (RIP) was the guy who developed the WHOA brakes. The caliper was an off the shelf Wilwood four piston and the rotors were the stock Fiat items. The development was in the mounting brackets for the calipers. I have no idea what info may be out there on specs, blue prints, etc. Jim was very precise about this project and I'm proud that he sent me one of his units as beta tester.
 
carl said:
The development was in the mounting brackets for the calipers.
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Making the mounting brackets for most caliper installations really isn't magic. There are only a couple of basic dimensions needed to get the unit positioned over the rotor correctly. Determining those dimensions is easy if you have the parts on hand to mock up and measure. Depending on the specific application (vehicle's spindle/mounting ears, caliper shape, rotor size), the bracket might be fairly simple or it could be rather convoluted in shape. The ones that work out to be more basic can be made without the need for elaborate equipment. It's the ones that are very complex in dimension that might require more specialized machines to fabricate. Frankly those combinations are likely not the best options to use anyway, for other reasons. So I guess the hardest part is having access to the calipers in consideration to do some trial fitting; if it works out then everything's fine, but if not then you have a set of calipers you can't use.
 
I found that going for bigger calipers (overall cross section of pistons) upset the peddle feel due to having to shift more fluid and so excessive travel. It's quite involved to put a bigger master cylinder in the peddle box, and if you did you would then have to push harder on the peddle. Retro fitting servos to overcome this is also tricky , think Lancia Scorpion. I run a standard system in 100% condition with decent pads and braided lines. While not up to modern standards (you definitely need more effort on the peddle, and fade is an issue for prolonged track use) it's good enough for my short duration hill climbing efforts and so plenty good enough for road use
 
I believe if the caliper pistons were larger, and the master cylinder size was increased accordingly, then pedal effort would remain roughly the same as before (not harder). However if the master cylinder size was increased, but not the calipers, then pedal effort would increase. Fluid dynamics, things are relative to the proportional size of both ends of the system. But that does not mean it would be easy to do.
 
Dr.Jeff said:
Making the mounting brackets for most caliper installations really isn't magic. There are only a couple of basic dimensions needed to get the unit positioned over the rotor correctly. Determining those dimensions is easy if you have the parts on hand to mock up and measure. Depending on the specific application (vehicle's spindle/mounting ears, caliper shape, rotor size), the bracket might be fairly simple or it could be rather convoluted in shape. The ones that work out to be more basic can be made without the need for elaborate equipment. It's the ones that are very complex in dimension that might require more specialized machines to fabricate. Frankly those combinations are likely not the best options to use anyway, for other reasons. So I guess the hardest part is having access to the calipers in consideration to do some trial fitting; if it works out then everything's fine, but if not then you have a set of calipers you can't use.
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Easiest way out is to use axial mount calipers (like Brembo), as bracket design is less convoluted. Better design than single piston sliders ( Bendix, Girling, ATE), IMO. I did this several times on Volvo applications. What is generally more of a concern is wheel offset/clearance, which is more of a major concern for the X1/9, given the (limited) available options.
 
The use of 13" wheels was a big concern with Jim on his WHOA brakes. Some 13" wheels would work and some would not but that was Jm's target, to be able to use 13" wheels.
 
Sorry if this is going a little tangent. But if I were upgrading the brakes, to the extent of completely replacing everything with high end aftermarket components. Then it would seem natural to want to upgrade my wheel/tire package as well. And 13" certainly does not fit that definition. In other words, why go to the extent of upgrading one aspect of the system but not the rest? However I find 13" wheels to be unsightly to begin with, so perhaps I'm biased.
 
On my side, I tend to stick to 13" wheels, but it's mostly to stay period-correct. Some 14" or 15" would also look vintage, but most bigger sizes are not.
 
But Wilwood calipers do not look correct. So changing one thing but not another seems inconsistent under that logic. But again, I am not one of the "keep it stock" purists so I don't understand.
 
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