tipo 1600 motor on 128?

ghostdancing

True Classic
here in italy is more easy to source a later 1.6 sohc (tipo, tempra, lancia dedra) of the '90s then a 1.5 of the '80s

as far as i understood there are no major issue for fitting this lump in the 128..but i guess my 4 gear trans is not ok with a 1.6.. what gearbox i should couple with the 1.6? i guess the tipo box has the actuating lever on the top, so no good..correct?
 
Correct.

You can use the 4-speed with the Tipo engine if you keep your old flywheel, clutch and starter.
I used a 4-speed with 3.76 final drive with my hot 1600.
 
so you just changed the final drive? from wich car is the 3.76 gearing? how does it feel your car on the road with this setup?

another question: do you use carburetors or Elect. ignition?
 
Yes, but I didn‘t like it so much.
The jump from 3rd to 4th gear becomes too large.
I would use 4sp with 4.08 or 5sp with 4.08. (both stock).

Twin carbs and Plex elctonic ignition.
 
well i would use a single double body carb (gas mileage is priority over performance); so you suggest me to source a 4.08 drive..what cars can be the donor of this gears?
is the 1.6 block taller than 1.3\1.5 older sohcs?
 
should be 13\53..if i understand well it's 4.08..correct? with the 1.3 motor is a bit on the "long" side (for beeing an old fiat..)..but i guess with the torque of the 1.6 can be very tight..or not? i figure i can start in 2° gear with 15 kgm@3000rpm (the 1.3 has something like 8kgm@3800)
 
Don't worry about the final drive ratio or the transmission, you're over thinking this. The 1600 with SPI is rated to about 90hp... with all the coupe parts (like camshaft if you have the "right" one) it could make a little more... but it will also make a lot more torque, and as you keep telling us you drive at mostly under 5000rpm then that is what you want.

It will lose the "revs" that the 1300 has, there's no way the 1600 (totally stock) will rev as hard as the 1300 does... but you keep telling us you don't rev the engine hard and just want more pull up hills.

The Tipo head has only two bolts that hold the thermostat assembly onto the head, so unless you make an adaptor plate the 128 thermostat will not fit straight onto the tipo head.

BTW a final drive with a higher numerical value (like 5:1) is referred to as "short" and one with a smaller numerical value (like 3:1) is called "tall or long" gearing.

SteveC
 
..so the 13\53 gearing should work well on the street with the 1.6 lump?

another couple of questions: i would run a single double throat carb: wich carburetor and wich manifold i can use?

can i fit the yellow old style timing belt cover on the 1.6?

can also mount the distributor on the block (this motors have the dizzy mounted on the camshaft)?

termostat housing: i need an adaptor..correct? is something easy to build out?

i remember i read on this forum that the 1.6 is "open deck block"..what this means exaclty?
 
If you search “Tipo Head” or thermostat housing, these have been discussed (with photos very recently on the forum :)
 
You can use a 1500 inlet manifold and a re-jetted 34 DATR/DMTR. If you mean a DCNF or DCOE carb, I don't know of any manifolds available for a single twin-choke carb.

I think the 1500 belt cover and back plate should fit.

A block mounted distributor will fit.

Open deck refers to the larger voids around the tops of the bores compared to the 1300/1500 block.

2013-04-21 19.51.49.jpg
 
thankyou! yes, i mean dmtr\datr style carb.. for the exhaust manifold, the tipo\tempra\dedra part should fit, correct?
 
I'm sure a Tipo or X1/9 1500 twin downpipe manifold can be used, just make sure the ports are matched.
 
Differences between 1600 (tipo) and 1300 sohc (128)

The Tipo head has only two bolts that hold the thermostat assembly onto the head, so unless you make an adaptor plate the 128 thermostat will not fit straight onto the tipo head. If you want to connect the heater, this adaptor will also need to incorporate a heater hose fitting, as the tipo head does not have a heater hose fitting at the cam drive end..

You could use the tipo thermostat assembly (which are cheap and plentiful) as this has the heater fitting, but the tipo doesn't use a bypass thermostat system, so you would need to modify your bottom radiator hose or make some sort of joiner to have something to connect the bottom hose to.

front water jacket plate. Tipo is a different shape. to fit the 128 / x19 style engine mounting a 1500 sohc front water jacket plate is needed. One of the holes that would go thru to water needs to be welded and ground flat. Only when the 1500 sohc front water jacket plate is fitted can the front "snail" mount be fitted to the block.

Timing belt tooth pitch. Not really an issue, but obviously you need to used all three gears and a belt to suit. Rounded tooth belt is a more modern design.

Timing belt tensioner, tipo uses a different method of tensioning. 128 / X19 type spring tensioner can be used, but needs to be a 1500 tensioner mount and a 1500 bearing... the 1300 bearing and mount are different to 1500, so in your case if you go the 128 / x19 tensioner route you will need to source these.

Auxiliary shaft and oil pump drive gear. A real trap from young players this one! Tipo aux shaft skew gear and the oil pump drive gear it meshes with are not a 1:1 drive ratio. 1100/1300/1500 type aux shaft and oil pump drive gear must be used if the distributor is to be block mounted.

Camshaft. Tipo cam, apart from being pretty crap from a performance perspective, also has the distributor (computer controlled so it has no "guts" it simply distributes) driven from it's end... this precludes the fitment of the top engine mount. You need to fit the 1300/1500 cambox /top mount bracket, and while your at it use the 128 coupe camshaft

1300 and 1500/1600 steel backing plate is different, the tinware that goes between the block and transmission... you need to use a 1300 one that suits your four speed transmission.

Auxiliary drive. 1100/1300/1500 sohc uses a regular trapezoidal section "V" belt, the Tipo 1600 uses a multi ribbed serpentine belt setup... if you want to retain things like your standard alternator, you need to convert the tipo to the V belt pulley

front timing belt pulley, tipo front pulley is really heavy and it incorporates a toothed pulley for engine timing / crank angle sensors. Fitting the 1300 front pulley will work..BUT... then your timing marks won't line up with any available timing marker, so you would need to remark your front pulley at least. In some cases to mount the timing marker, (if you wanted to use the regular 1500 x19/strada/ritmo etc timing pointer and bracket) you may need to source and fit an appropriate front seal carrier plate, as this incorporates the threaded bosses to mount said timing marker and bracket.

Yellow timing Belt cover. Tipo wont fit, 1300 cover is too short, you need to source a 1500 timing belt cover and backing steel plate. referring to problem of timing markers above... If you are really really lucky, a 1500 belt cover from some models of ritmo/strada has the three cast in timing marks to suit the regular 1300 front V pulley standard marking and comes as a one piece item. Most 1500 yellow belt covers are two piece and do not have these three cast in marks for ignition timing which is why these engines use a bolted on bracket and pointer...which uses a different front seal carrier than the one your 1300 has.

water pump and pulley... offset and pulley is different to suit the multi ribbed belt. I'm pretty sure the tipo multi ribbed water pump pulley will foul the chassis rail in both 128 and X19 chassis.

Rear water pump housing and steel water return pipe. Tipo housing does not incorporate a fitting for the heater hose, it uses a heater hose nipple on the steel return pipe instead. 128 rear pump housing has the correct fitting for the stock heater hose to join to.

flywheel, 1600 tipo uses the larger 190mm clutch (most some are 200mm), 1300 128 is 180mm diameter. You can use either flywheel or clutch BUT you must fit a 1300 ring gear to the tipo flywheel if you go this route. Whichever flywheel you use, make sure it is fitted with the timing dimple positioned correctly, so you don't become a member of the "180 club"

starter motor ring gear. 1500/1600 and 1300 are different tooth counts, you need to have the 1300 ring gear to use the 1300 starter motor if you retain the stock four speed gearbox.

I'm really not sure if there are any sump differences between a 128 and a tipo/tempra/dedra, but I'm guessing there probably will be some. I would be tending towards swapping the 128 sump over just to be sure, unless you can see there is no difference.

automatic crank difference... make sure the tipo engine came from a manual transmission, there is a difference at the flywheel end of the crank (same with strada / ritmo) which is easy enough to machine in a lathe, but the crank needs to be out of the motor to do this.

there are probably a few other small things that I'll think of as the day progresses... so expect the list to grow

Anyway, bottom line is, if you do this, you will basically be stripping the engine back to the head and block assembly. i.e. removing the flywheel, front pulley, water pump, aux shaft etc etc and swapping in a lot of 128 or X19 parts.... not too difficult, but not actually a straight bolt in fit by any means.

SteveC
 
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Awesome writeup Steve!
I would have never thought of all of those differences although I have seen them all.
 
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