<TABLE cellSpacing=1 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD colSpan=2><TABLE width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="PADDING-TOP: 4px" vAlign=top colSpan=2>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]tranny is on the table!!<!-- google_ad_section_end -->
[/FONT][FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]January 31 2000 at 8:57 AM[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial][/FONT][/FONT]</TD><TD vAlign=top align=right>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]Mac [/FONT]</TD></TR><TR><TD vAlign=bottom colSpan=3><HR></TD></TR><TR><TD colSpan=3>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]<!-- google_ad_section_start -->Heyheyhey!
I got another good hour last night to tear into the '80 X tranny project. I am pleased to report that all is well so far, the tranny is out and is on the workbench!
I am almost caught up with Steve's instructions: the case is open and I am taking the forks out next.
I have been quite suprised so far at the ease with which this whole operation is progressing. Of course, I knew in advance that the tranny had been apart before, it was in pieces when I bought it a year ago...
Every step of this process has gone easily so far. In my experience with X1/9s, every project seems always to go one of two ways. Either the car knows I am trying to do it a good turn, and thus everything is easy as pie, or the car knows I am trying to do it a good turn, and thus everything is a tremendous pain in the arse!
I am glad to say that the X is being cooperative this time around. Methinks she really wants to get back on the road soon.
The only trouble I have had at all was in unstaking/removing the 2 30mm nuts in the 5th gear housing. My impact wrench just would not do the job, so I had to resort to using a breaker bar. I was nervous about that, hoping it would not do any damage, but apparently that was all it took because they both came loose that way.
So I am just a couple of turns away from having the whole mass of guts on the table!! Ahh, break time! -Mac.
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[/FONT]</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></TD></TR><TR><TD>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]Author[/FONT]</TD><TD>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]Reply[/FONT]</TD></TR><TR><TD vAlign=top noWrap width="17.9%">[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]<SCRIPT language=Javascript> <!-- var n54_em; n54_em = ""; n54_em = n54_em + "s";n54_em = n54_em + "t";n54_em = n54_em + "e";n54_em = n54_em + "v";n54_em = n54_em + "e";n54_em = n54_em + "h";n54_em = n54_em + "h";n54_em = n54_em + "@";n54_em = n54_em + "h";n54_em = n54_em + "i";n54_em = n54_em + "w";n54_em = n54_em + "a";n54_em = n54_em + "a";n54_em = n54_em + "y";n54_em = n54_em + ".";n54_em = n54_em + "n";n54_em = n54_em + "e";n54_em = n54_em + "t"; document.write("Steve Hoelscher"); // --> </SCRIPT>Steve Hoelscher <NOSCRIPT> Steve Hoelscher </NOSCRIPT>[/FONT]
[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial][/FONT]</TD><TD style="PADDING-LEFT: 15px" vAlign=top><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=1 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD align=left>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]<!-- google_ad_section_start -->Gear cluster dissassembly<!-- google_ad_section_end -->
[/FONT][FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial][/FONT]</TD><TD vAlign=top align=right>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]January 31 2000, 9:27 PM [/FONT]</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=1 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="PADDING-LEFT: 15px">
[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]<!-- google_ad_section_start -->Now that you have the gear cluster out of the case and on the bench, its time to get down to the real point of this project:
Obviously there are two shafts, one with the gear cluster and one with a fixed set of cogs machined into the shaft. This is the "driven" shaft, so named as it is the one driven by the engine. This shaft may have come out with the bearing on the splined end that mates with the clutch. If so, you will want to remove the bearing. Sometimes a screwdriver can be used to separate it from the shaft, or use a soft face mallet to gently work it off the shaft. Be carefull not to chip the teeth of the gears or hit it hard enough to damage the bearing. It is not necessary to remove the large bearing from the 5th gear end, but if it comes off easily, remove it.
Now inspect all of the gears' teeth for chips, or debris stuck deep between the teeth. Pay special attention to the smallest of the gears, the one located 2nd from the clutch splines, this is reverse. It is normal to have wear on the end towards the clutch splines. A little is normal, none is better, a lot is a problem. Note that the gear is cut into the shaft itself. If you tear this gear up, you must replace the entire $haft. Once you have determined the condition of the driven shaft, lay it asside.
Now we begin on the gear cluster itself. First, make yourself some clean space to lay the parts out in order. The "lay" shaft has the pinion gear on the end opposite 5th gear. It is machined into the shaft itself, all of the rest slides off the other end. Try to pull the large bearing off the end of the shaft. If it won't come off by hand, place a block of wood on a sturdy surface (a concrete floor works well). Next, turn the shaft pinion gear up, cup your hads under the bearing so that the exposed portion of the shaft extends below your hands and knock the end of the shaft on the block of wood while cradeling the bearing in your hands. A couple of pops and the weight of the gearset should break the bearing loose so that it and the rest of the gearset will slide off the shaft.
Lay the parts out in order: the bearing, 5th gear and its sleeve, the 3rd/4th slider and its tripod hub, 3rd gear and its sleeve, 2nd gear and its sleeve, the 1st/2nd slider and its hub and 1st gear and its sleeve. Note that three of the sleeves have a lip on one end and one does not. Note the orientation of the sleeve as you remove it from the gear. Also, the synchronizers for 1st and 2nd may come out on the gear or on the hub. Try to keep the synchro ring with its designated gear for now.
Now you will want to diss-assemble the various sub assemblies. 3rd, 4th and 5th gears all have their synchronizers mounted on the gear. Use a pair of snap ring pliers to remove the snap ring that retains the synchro ring. You will want to use a robust set of snap ring pliers for this task. I spread the snap ring and walk out the end with the tab first. Once the snap ring is off remove the synchro ring (noting which side faced the slider), the two locks and cresent springs. Now examine the synchros for wear. You should see wear at the edges of the gap in the ring, on the side that faced the slider. The synchro has a textured finish to it. Wear appears as a smooth, polished surface. We will cover wear on these components later.
Now dissassemble the 1st and 2nd gear slider's hub assembly. If the slider came off with the hub, you can push the hub out of the slider. It is spring loaded, but pops out easily. Once the hub is out of the slider, you will note there are three bright metal inserts held in place by a pair of circular springs (one on either side of the hub). Use a pair of needle nose pliers to remove the springs and allow the tabs to drop out of the hub.
Now clean all of the parts and return them to their appropriate location on your work surface. Remember to keep the individual components matched up with each gear (gear, sleeve, synchro, sliders).
The next step in the process is inspection and evaluation.
Steve
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[/FONT]</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></TD></TR><TR><TD vAlign=top noWrap width="17.9%">[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]<SCRIPT language=Javascript> <!-- var n54_em; n54_em = ""; n54_em = n54_em + "p";n54_em = n54_em + "a";n54_em = n54_em + "u";n54_em = n54_em + "l";n54_em = n54_em + ".";n54_em = n54_em + "s";n54_em = n54_em + "t";n54_em = n54_em + "o";n54_em = n54_em + "l";n54_em = n54_em + "t";n54_em = n54_em + "z";n54_em = n54_em + "e";n54_em = n54_em + "@";n54_em = n54_em + "e";n54_em = n54_em + "r";n54_em = n54_em + "o";n54_em = n54_em + "l";n54_em = n54_em + "s";n54_em = n54_em + ".";n54_em = n54_em + "c";n54_em = n54_em + "o";n54_em = n54_em + "m"; document.write("Paul Stoltze"); // --> </SCRIPT>Paul Stoltze <NOSCRIPT> Paul Stoltze </NOSCRIPT>[/FONT]
[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial][/FONT]</TD><TD style="PADDING-LEFT: 30px" vAlign=top><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=1 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD align=left>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]<!-- google_ad_section_start -->Fantastic tutorial!<!-- google_ad_section_end -->
[/FONT][FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial][/FONT]</TD><TD vAlign=top align=right>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]January 31 2000, 10:12 PM [/FONT]</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=1 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="PADDING-LEFT: 30px">
[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]<!-- google_ad_section_start -->Steve, Mac,
I have a 4-speed opened up on my workbench, so I'm following this thread with great interest. Looking forward to the instructions on how to get all the little pieces back together again!
Paul<!-- google_ad_section_end -->
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[/FONT]</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></TD></TR><TR><TD vAlign=top noWrap width="17.9%">[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]<SCRIPT language=Javascript> <!-- var n54_em; n54_em = ""; n54_em = n54_em + "t";n54_em = n54_em + "f";n54_em = n54_em + "m";n54_em = n54_em + "o";n54_em = n54_em + "r";n54_em = n54_em + "t";n54_em = n54_em + "o";n54_em = n54_em + "n";n54_em = n54_em + "@";n54_em = n54_em + "h";n54_em = n54_em + "o";n54_em = n54_em + "t";n54_em = n54_em + "m";n54_em = n54_em + "a";n54_em = n54_em + "i";n54_em = n54_em + "l";n54_em = n54_em + ".";n54_em = n54_em + "c";n54_em = n54_em + "o";n54_em = n54_em + "m"; document.write("Tim"); // --> </SCRIPT>Tim <NOSCRIPT> Tim </NOSCRIPT>[/FONT]
[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial][/FONT]</TD><TD style="PADDING-LEFT: 45px" vAlign=top><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=1 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD align=left>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]<!-- google_ad_section_start -->Hey Mac, why don't you....<!-- google_ad_section_end -->
[/FONT][FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial][/FONT]</TD><TD vAlign=top align=right>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]February 1 2000, 5:00 AM [/FONT]</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=1 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="PADDING-LEFT: 45px">
[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]<!-- google_ad_section_start -->collect all this great information on tranny’s and put a page together maybe with photo's, one day all this info will disappear off the bottom of the forum and that would be a shame, 11/10 for one of the best car related forum’s!!
Cheers, Tim. (UK)
Black 89’ 1500
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[/FONT]</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></TD></TR><TR><TD vAlign=top noWrap width="17.9%">[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]<SCRIPT language=Javascript> <!-- var n54_em; n54_em = ""; n54_em = n54_em + "g";n54_em = n54_em + "r";n54_em = n54_em + "8";n54_em = n54_em + "x";n54_em = n54_em + "t";n54_em = n54_em + "c";n54_em = n54_em + "@";n54_em = n54_em + "g";n54_em = n54_em + "t";n54_em = n54_em + "e";n54_em = n54_em + ".";n54_em = n54_em + "n";n54_em = n54_em + "e";n54_em = n54_em + "t"; document.write("Mike Mittelstead"); // --> </SCRIPT>Mike Mittelstead <NOSCRIPT> Mike Mittelstead </NOSCRIPT>[/FONT]
[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial][/FONT]</TD><TD style="PADDING-LEFT: 60px" vAlign=top><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=1 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD align=left>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]<!-- google_ad_section_start -->Compiling the Fiat Gospel<!-- google_ad_section_end -->
[/FONT][FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial][/FONT]</TD><TD vAlign=top align=right>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]February 1 2000, 7:28 AM [/FONT]</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=1 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="PADDING-LEFT: 60px">
[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]<!-- google_ad_section_start -->Yes, wonderful info, and praise the Lord, the Internet, and Mac for providing the path for the BTDT Messiahs to bring it to the Minions.
The Gospel may fade into the nether regions of cyberspace, but the info will live forever if you run hardcopy of everything you find to be Gospel-like.
I know mere paper is counter to the electronic age, but as an "Old Believer", I find more comfort in knowing that precious info is forever preserved in a 3-ring binder. And since the Gospel can be found in many places, compiling it all into one epic tome has been my calling. MM/OR<!-- google_ad_section_end -->
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[/FONT]</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></TD></TR><TR><TD vAlign=top noWrap width="17.9%">[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]Mac[/FONT]
[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial][/FONT]</TD><TD style="PADDING-LEFT: 75px" vAlign=top><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=1 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD align=left>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]<!-- google_ad_section_start -->SeaX Magazine<!-- google_ad_section_end -->
[/FONT][FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial][/FONT]</TD><TD vAlign=top align=right>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]February 1 2000, 10:31 AM [/FONT]</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=1 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="PADDING-LEFT: 75px">
[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]<!-- google_ad_section_start -->Hey folks!
I agree that this stuff is absolutely top notch. By the way, I again want to thank everyone taking part in this ongoing virtual-tech-session. I (and my tranny) really appreciate it!
Back to the subject of "tomes", I might as well tell you all now that the much-talked-about "SeaX Magazine" which will be coming out in the future will be featuring a great deal of 'reconstituted' forum information, as well as (of course) a sizable chunk of content which SeaX has tucked away, that is not viewable on the site.
This whole progression on my 5-speed in particular is going to take a few forms for SeaX. One: this series of threads in the forum. Two: A humble web page covering the evolution of the tranny job with text & pics, which will be put on the site for free after the job is completed. Three: The sum total of all of those will be compiled & refined for eventual publication as a "finished" and detailed tech article for the SeaX Mag...
Or at least, that is the plan at present.
Hey MM, if tomes are your calling, email me! SeaX Magazine could put you to work!
-Mac.
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[/FONT]</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></TD></TR><TR><TD vAlign=top noWrap width="17.9%">[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]<SCRIPT language=Javascript> <!-- var n54_em; n54_em = ""; n54_em = n54_em + "s";n54_em = n54_em + "t";n54_em = n54_em + "e";n54_em = n54_em + "v";n54_em = n54_em + "e";n54_em = n54_em + "h";n54_em = n54_em + "h";n54_em = n54_em + "@";n54_em = n54_em + "h";n54_em = n54_em + "i";n54_em = n54_em + "w";n54_em = n54_em + "a";n54_em = n54_em + "a";n54_em = n54_em + "y";n54_em = n54_em + ".";n54_em = n54_em + "n";n54_em = n54_em + "e";n54_em = n54_em + "t"; document.write("Steve Hoelschder"); // --> </SCRIPT>Steve Hoelschder <NOSCRIPT> Steve Hoelschder </NOSCRIPT>[/FONT]
[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial][/FONT]</TD><TD style="PADDING-LEFT: 45px" vAlign=top><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=1 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD align=left>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]<!-- google_ad_section_start -->4 spd notes<!-- google_ad_section_end -->
[/FONT][FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial][/FONT]</TD><TD vAlign=top align=right>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]February 1 2000, 7:25 AM [/FONT]</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=1 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="PADDING-LEFT: 45px">
[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]<!-- google_ad_section_start -->Paul,
Glad you brought this to my attention. I was thinking the other day that I should probably add some notes about the 4 spd. There are some minor differences in the two. Especially in re-assembly. I will add the 4 spd notes in the final installment on re-assembly.
Steve
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[/FONT]</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></TD></TR><TR><TD vAlign=top noWrap width="17.9%">[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]<SCRIPT language=Javascript> <!-- var n54_em; n54_em = ""; n54_em = n54_em + "s";n54_em = n54_em + "e";n54_em = n54_em + "a";n54_em = n54_em + "t";n54_em = n54_em + "t";n54_em = n54_em + "l";n54_em = n54_em + "e";n54_em = n54_em + "x";n54_em = n54_em + "1";n54_em = n54_em + "9";n54_em = n54_em + "@";n54_em = n54_em + "y";n54_em = n54_em + "a";n54_em = n54_em + "h";n54_em = n54_em + "o";n54_em = n54_em + "o";n54_em = n54_em + ".";n54_em = n54_em + "c";n54_em = n54_em + "o";n54_em = n54_em + "m"; document.write("Mac"); // --> </SCRIPT>Mac <NOSCRIPT> Mac </NOSCRIPT>[/FONT]
[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial][/FONT]</TD><TD style="PADDING-LEFT: 30px" vAlign=top><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=1 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD align=left>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]<!-- google_ad_section_start -->status report<!-- google_ad_section_end -->
[/FONT][FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial][/FONT]</TD><TD vAlign=top align=right>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]February 1 2000, 11:32 PM [/FONT]</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=1 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="PADDING-LEFT: 30px">
[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]<!-- google_ad_section_start -->
Steve H wrote:
This is the "driven" shaft, so named as it is the one driven by the engine. This shaft may have come out with the bearing on the splined end that mates with the clutch. If so, you will want to remove the bearing. Sometimes a screwdriver can be used to separate it from the shaft, or use a soft face mallet to gently work it off the shaft.
Got it off, looks good.
Be careful not to chip the teeth of the gears or hit it hard enough to damage the bearing. It is not necessary to remove the large bearing from the 5th gear end, but if it comes off easily, remove it.
It did. I did. But I have a problem here with another bearing. UH-OH! There is a bearing at the bottom of the gear (aka "lay") shaft, it sits in the case and the shaft's bottom spins in it. The inner race on this one is hashed!!
What's up with that??
Now inspect all of the gears' teeth for chips, or debris stuck deep between the teeth.
We're talking about the input (aka "driven") shaft now right?...
Pay special attention to the smallest of the gears, the one located 2nd from the clutch splines, this is reverse.
I'm there. Is it normal to have wear on the end toward the clutch splines?
It is normal to have wear on the end toward the clutch splines.
Sorry, couldn't resist
A little is normal, none is better, a lot is a problem.
Define "a lot" please... There is wear there, it does not look like much, just a mildly rounded shoulder on that side of the teeth. On the other hand, I have no frame of reference for what is "too much" wear. In addition to the one rounded shoulder, some teeth seem to feel a little rough at their tops. That makes me nervous, please tell me it's not a big deal!
I can say this regardless: reverse was working great when I tore it down. I have actually never had reverse problems with this tranny so far. So I am thinking it is probably okay?
Now we begin on the gear cluster itself. First, make yourself some clean space to lay the parts out in order.
I can't do clean here unfortunately. "Not disgusting" will have to do
The "lay" shaft has the pinion gear on the end opposite 5th gear. It is machined into the shaft itself, all of the rest slides off the other end.
I got the whole thing apart without incident. Except, that is, for the hashed inner race. Man, I was suprised to see that...
Lay the parts out in order
Sadly it is an order which only I may understand, but there they are & I can tell where they all go - so far so good!
Now you will want to dis-assemble the various sub assemblies. 3rd, 4th and 5th gears all have their synchronizers mounted on the gear. Use a pair of snap ring pliers to remove the snap ring that retains the synchro ring.
Damn those snap rings!!
You will want to use a robust set of snap ring pliers for this task.
You're not kidding there! They were kind of tough, but I got 'em...
Now examine the synchros for wear
Dissassemble the 1st and 2nd gear slider's hub assembly.
Clean all of the parts and return them to their appropriate location on your work surface
These steps are where I stopped because I ran out of time tonight. Shame, too - I was looking forward to getting a good look at the synchros... well, there's always tomorrow!
The next step in the process is inspection and evaluation
Okay, we'll be there shortly. That's the update in a nutshell, and I'm off to bed! Peace, -Mac.
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[/FONT][FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]January 31 2000 at 8:57 AM[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial][/FONT][/FONT]</TD><TD vAlign=top align=right>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]Mac [/FONT]</TD></TR><TR><TD vAlign=bottom colSpan=3><HR></TD></TR><TR><TD colSpan=3>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]<!-- google_ad_section_start -->Heyheyhey!
I got another good hour last night to tear into the '80 X tranny project. I am pleased to report that all is well so far, the tranny is out and is on the workbench!
I am almost caught up with Steve's instructions: the case is open and I am taking the forks out next.
I have been quite suprised so far at the ease with which this whole operation is progressing. Of course, I knew in advance that the tranny had been apart before, it was in pieces when I bought it a year ago...
Every step of this process has gone easily so far. In my experience with X1/9s, every project seems always to go one of two ways. Either the car knows I am trying to do it a good turn, and thus everything is easy as pie, or the car knows I am trying to do it a good turn, and thus everything is a tremendous pain in the arse!
I am glad to say that the X is being cooperative this time around. Methinks she really wants to get back on the road soon.
The only trouble I have had at all was in unstaking/removing the 2 30mm nuts in the 5th gear housing. My impact wrench just would not do the job, so I had to resort to using a breaker bar. I was nervous about that, hoping it would not do any damage, but apparently that was all it took because they both came loose that way.
So I am just a couple of turns away from having the whole mass of guts on the table!! Ahh, break time! -Mac.
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[/FONT][FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial][/FONT]</TD><TD vAlign=top align=right>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]January 31 2000, 9:27 PM [/FONT]</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=1 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="PADDING-LEFT: 15px">
[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]<!-- google_ad_section_start -->Now that you have the gear cluster out of the case and on the bench, its time to get down to the real point of this project:
Obviously there are two shafts, one with the gear cluster and one with a fixed set of cogs machined into the shaft. This is the "driven" shaft, so named as it is the one driven by the engine. This shaft may have come out with the bearing on the splined end that mates with the clutch. If so, you will want to remove the bearing. Sometimes a screwdriver can be used to separate it from the shaft, or use a soft face mallet to gently work it off the shaft. Be carefull not to chip the teeth of the gears or hit it hard enough to damage the bearing. It is not necessary to remove the large bearing from the 5th gear end, but if it comes off easily, remove it.
Now inspect all of the gears' teeth for chips, or debris stuck deep between the teeth. Pay special attention to the smallest of the gears, the one located 2nd from the clutch splines, this is reverse. It is normal to have wear on the end towards the clutch splines. A little is normal, none is better, a lot is a problem. Note that the gear is cut into the shaft itself. If you tear this gear up, you must replace the entire $haft. Once you have determined the condition of the driven shaft, lay it asside.
Now we begin on the gear cluster itself. First, make yourself some clean space to lay the parts out in order. The "lay" shaft has the pinion gear on the end opposite 5th gear. It is machined into the shaft itself, all of the rest slides off the other end. Try to pull the large bearing off the end of the shaft. If it won't come off by hand, place a block of wood on a sturdy surface (a concrete floor works well). Next, turn the shaft pinion gear up, cup your hads under the bearing so that the exposed portion of the shaft extends below your hands and knock the end of the shaft on the block of wood while cradeling the bearing in your hands. A couple of pops and the weight of the gearset should break the bearing loose so that it and the rest of the gearset will slide off the shaft.
Lay the parts out in order: the bearing, 5th gear and its sleeve, the 3rd/4th slider and its tripod hub, 3rd gear and its sleeve, 2nd gear and its sleeve, the 1st/2nd slider and its hub and 1st gear and its sleeve. Note that three of the sleeves have a lip on one end and one does not. Note the orientation of the sleeve as you remove it from the gear. Also, the synchronizers for 1st and 2nd may come out on the gear or on the hub. Try to keep the synchro ring with its designated gear for now.
Now you will want to diss-assemble the various sub assemblies. 3rd, 4th and 5th gears all have their synchronizers mounted on the gear. Use a pair of snap ring pliers to remove the snap ring that retains the synchro ring. You will want to use a robust set of snap ring pliers for this task. I spread the snap ring and walk out the end with the tab first. Once the snap ring is off remove the synchro ring (noting which side faced the slider), the two locks and cresent springs. Now examine the synchros for wear. You should see wear at the edges of the gap in the ring, on the side that faced the slider. The synchro has a textured finish to it. Wear appears as a smooth, polished surface. We will cover wear on these components later.
Now dissassemble the 1st and 2nd gear slider's hub assembly. If the slider came off with the hub, you can push the hub out of the slider. It is spring loaded, but pops out easily. Once the hub is out of the slider, you will note there are three bright metal inserts held in place by a pair of circular springs (one on either side of the hub). Use a pair of needle nose pliers to remove the springs and allow the tabs to drop out of the hub.
Now clean all of the parts and return them to their appropriate location on your work surface. Remember to keep the individual components matched up with each gear (gear, sleeve, synchro, sliders).
The next step in the process is inspection and evaluation.
Steve
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[/FONT][FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial][/FONT]</TD><TD vAlign=top align=right>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]January 31 2000, 10:12 PM [/FONT]</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=1 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="PADDING-LEFT: 30px">
[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]<!-- google_ad_section_start -->Steve, Mac,
I have a 4-speed opened up on my workbench, so I'm following this thread with great interest. Looking forward to the instructions on how to get all the little pieces back together again!
Paul<!-- google_ad_section_end -->
[/FONT]</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=4 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD vAlign=top align=left>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial] [/FONT]</TD><TD vAlign=top noWrap align=right>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]
[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial][/FONT]</TD><TD style="PADDING-LEFT: 45px" vAlign=top><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=1 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD align=left>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]<!-- google_ad_section_start -->Hey Mac, why don't you....<!-- google_ad_section_end -->
[/FONT][FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial][/FONT]</TD><TD vAlign=top align=right>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]February 1 2000, 5:00 AM [/FONT]</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=1 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="PADDING-LEFT: 45px">
[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]<!-- google_ad_section_start -->collect all this great information on tranny’s and put a page together maybe with photo's, one day all this info will disappear off the bottom of the forum and that would be a shame, 11/10 for one of the best car related forum’s!!
Cheers, Tim. (UK)
Black 89’ 1500
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[/FONT]</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=4 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD vAlign=top align=left>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial] [/FONT]</TD><TD vAlign=top noWrap align=right>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]
[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial][/FONT]</TD><TD style="PADDING-LEFT: 60px" vAlign=top><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=1 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD align=left>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]<!-- google_ad_section_start -->Compiling the Fiat Gospel<!-- google_ad_section_end -->
[/FONT][FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial][/FONT]</TD><TD vAlign=top align=right>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]February 1 2000, 7:28 AM [/FONT]</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=1 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="PADDING-LEFT: 60px">
[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]<!-- google_ad_section_start -->Yes, wonderful info, and praise the Lord, the Internet, and Mac for providing the path for the BTDT Messiahs to bring it to the Minions.
The Gospel may fade into the nether regions of cyberspace, but the info will live forever if you run hardcopy of everything you find to be Gospel-like.
I know mere paper is counter to the electronic age, but as an "Old Believer", I find more comfort in knowing that precious info is forever preserved in a 3-ring binder. And since the Gospel can be found in many places, compiling it all into one epic tome has been my calling. MM/OR<!-- google_ad_section_end -->
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[/FONT][FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial][/FONT]</TD><TD vAlign=top align=right>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]February 1 2000, 10:31 AM [/FONT]</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=1 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="PADDING-LEFT: 75px">
[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]<!-- google_ad_section_start -->Hey folks!
I agree that this stuff is absolutely top notch. By the way, I again want to thank everyone taking part in this ongoing virtual-tech-session. I (and my tranny) really appreciate it!
Back to the subject of "tomes", I might as well tell you all now that the much-talked-about "SeaX Magazine" which will be coming out in the future will be featuring a great deal of 'reconstituted' forum information, as well as (of course) a sizable chunk of content which SeaX has tucked away, that is not viewable on the site.
This whole progression on my 5-speed in particular is going to take a few forms for SeaX. One: this series of threads in the forum. Two: A humble web page covering the evolution of the tranny job with text & pics, which will be put on the site for free after the job is completed. Three: The sum total of all of those will be compiled & refined for eventual publication as a "finished" and detailed tech article for the SeaX Mag...
Or at least, that is the plan at present.
Hey MM, if tomes are your calling, email me! SeaX Magazine could put you to work!
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[/FONT]</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=4 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD vAlign=top align=left>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial] [/FONT]</TD><TD vAlign=top noWrap align=right>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]
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[/FONT][FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial][/FONT]</TD><TD vAlign=top align=right>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]February 1 2000, 7:25 AM [/FONT]</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=1 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="PADDING-LEFT: 45px">
[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]<!-- google_ad_section_start -->Paul,
Glad you brought this to my attention. I was thinking the other day that I should probably add some notes about the 4 spd. There are some minor differences in the two. Especially in re-assembly. I will add the 4 spd notes in the final installment on re-assembly.
Steve
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[/FONT][FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial][/FONT]</TD><TD vAlign=top align=right>[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial]February 1 2000, 11:32 PM [/FONT]</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=1 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="PADDING-LEFT: 30px">
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Steve H wrote:
This is the "driven" shaft, so named as it is the one driven by the engine. This shaft may have come out with the bearing on the splined end that mates with the clutch. If so, you will want to remove the bearing. Sometimes a screwdriver can be used to separate it from the shaft, or use a soft face mallet to gently work it off the shaft.
Got it off, looks good.
Be careful not to chip the teeth of the gears or hit it hard enough to damage the bearing. It is not necessary to remove the large bearing from the 5th gear end, but if it comes off easily, remove it.
It did. I did. But I have a problem here with another bearing. UH-OH! There is a bearing at the bottom of the gear (aka "lay") shaft, it sits in the case and the shaft's bottom spins in it. The inner race on this one is hashed!!
What's up with that??
Now inspect all of the gears' teeth for chips, or debris stuck deep between the teeth.
We're talking about the input (aka "driven") shaft now right?...
Pay special attention to the smallest of the gears, the one located 2nd from the clutch splines, this is reverse.
I'm there. Is it normal to have wear on the end toward the clutch splines?
It is normal to have wear on the end toward the clutch splines.
Sorry, couldn't resist
A little is normal, none is better, a lot is a problem.
Define "a lot" please... There is wear there, it does not look like much, just a mildly rounded shoulder on that side of the teeth. On the other hand, I have no frame of reference for what is "too much" wear. In addition to the one rounded shoulder, some teeth seem to feel a little rough at their tops. That makes me nervous, please tell me it's not a big deal!
I can say this regardless: reverse was working great when I tore it down. I have actually never had reverse problems with this tranny so far. So I am thinking it is probably okay?
Now we begin on the gear cluster itself. First, make yourself some clean space to lay the parts out in order.
I can't do clean here unfortunately. "Not disgusting" will have to do
The "lay" shaft has the pinion gear on the end opposite 5th gear. It is machined into the shaft itself, all of the rest slides off the other end.
I got the whole thing apart without incident. Except, that is, for the hashed inner race. Man, I was suprised to see that...
Lay the parts out in order
Sadly it is an order which only I may understand, but there they are & I can tell where they all go - so far so good!
Now you will want to dis-assemble the various sub assemblies. 3rd, 4th and 5th gears all have their synchronizers mounted on the gear. Use a pair of snap ring pliers to remove the snap ring that retains the synchro ring.
Damn those snap rings!!
You will want to use a robust set of snap ring pliers for this task.
You're not kidding there! They were kind of tough, but I got 'em...
Now examine the synchros for wear
Dissassemble the 1st and 2nd gear slider's hub assembly.
Clean all of the parts and return them to their appropriate location on your work surface
These steps are where I stopped because I ran out of time tonight. Shame, too - I was looking forward to getting a good look at the synchros... well, there's always tomorrow!
The next step in the process is inspection and evaluation
Okay, we'll be there shortly. That's the update in a nutshell, and I'm off to bed! Peace, -Mac.
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