Transmission selector input positions

Dr.Jeff

Dr.Jeff

True Classic
I recall someone had a good description of the positions for the shift selector input (on the trans) to equate to each gear engaged. I'm talking about the shaft on the transmission that the lollipop connects to. When the transmission is out of the car, completely disconnected from everything, and you are selecting the gears by moving that shaft with a pair of vice grips - in/out, rotate back/forth. Where the shaft will be positioned relative to engaging each gear. However I cannot find the thread with that description. Anyone have this information? Thanks.
 
I find it easiest to think about how the rod and lollipop moves when you move the shift lever.

Move the knob at the top of the shifter forward, the bottom end moves backward, pushes the shift selector input in.
Move the knob at the top of the shifter backwards, the bottom end moves forward and pulls the shift selector out.

Move the knob to the left (driver's view, or from behind the car) towards 1st and 2nd) and the rod rotates the shifter rod and lollipop counterclockwise (again, looking forward). If you have a transmission on the bench with visegrips clamped on the input shaft you are looking backwards, so this is a clockwise rotation of the input shaft.

Move the knob to the right (driver's view, or from behind the car) towards 5th and R and the rod rotates the shifter rod and lollipop clockwise (again, looking forward). If you have the transmission on the bench with visegrips clamped on the input shaft you are looking at it backwards, so this is a counterclockwise rotation of the input shaft.

So when you have the transmission on the bench front end facing you (or more likely you're on your back underneath the car looking rearwards as you marinate your hair in an oil leak):

input shaft turned clockwise and pushed in: 1st
input shaft turned clockwise and pulled out : 2nd
input shaft centered, pushed in: 3d
input shaft centered, pulled out: 4th
input shaft turned counterclockwise and pushed in: 5th, if you have it. 4-speeds will lock this movement out
input shaft turned counterclockwise and pulled out: reverse
input shaft in the middle position between pushed in and pulled out: neutral, and it will rotate both clockwise and counterclockwise (which is how you can select any gear from neutral)
 
EricH said:
I find it easiest to think about how the rod and lollipop moves when you move the shift lever.

Move the knob at the top of the shifter forward, the bottom end moves backward, pushes the shift selector input in.
Move the knob at the top of the shifter backwards, the bottom end moves forward and pulls the shift selector out.

Move the knob to the left (driver's view, or from behind the car) towards 1st and 2nd) and the rod rotates the shifter rod and lollipop counterclockwise (again, looking forward). If you have a transmission on the bench with visegrips clamped on the input shaft you are looking backwards, so this is a clockwise rotation of the input shaft.

Move the knob to the right (driver's view, or from behind the car) towards 5th and R and the rod rotates the shifter rod and lollipop clockwise (again, looking forward). If you have the transmission on the bench with visegrips clamped on the input shaft you are looking at it backwards, so this is a counterclockwise rotation of the input shaft.

So when you have the transmission on the bench front end facing you (or more likely you're on your back underneath the car looking rearwards as you marinate your hair in an oil leak):

input shaft turned clockwise and pushed in: 1st
input shaft turned clockwise and pulled out : 2nd
input shaft centered, pushed in: 3d
input shaft centered, pulled out: 4th
input shaft turned counterclockwise and pushed in: 5th, if you have it. 4-speeds will lock this movement out
input shaft turned counterclockwise and pulled out: reverse
input shaft in the middle position between pushed in and pulled out: neutral, and it will rotate both clockwise and counterclockwise (which is how you can select any gear from neutral)
Click to expand...
Thanks Eric, I was thinking it might have been you that I remembered discussing this before. That description makes perfect sense. This is the 5-speed trans that I just cleaned up (the exterior) so it is on the bench and I have vice grips on the input shaft.

For some reason it doesn't want to find a true neutral (seems to constantly be engaged in gear) and it is difficult to twist (rotate/turn) the input shaft. So I think I'm finding 1st, 2nd, 3rd, and 4th (not 5th and reverse), but it might just be 1st and 3rd (with considerable effort I can rotate the shaft enough to jump from the 1-2 row to the 3-4 row but things don't feel right). Therefore I started to second guess the positions of the input shaft and related gear selections. But your description helps to confirm that I'm definitely having a issue.

The trans was working perfectly before it was removed so I did not open it. I cleaned the outside and was about to replace the seals, paint it, etc, before reinstalling it. However now I'm not sure what is going on. It has been out of the car for a while and moved about the shop several times. As well as flipped around in every direction during cleaning. So something internally might have become jostled while moving it about.
 
Dr.Jeff said:
This is the 5-speed trans that I just cleaned up (the exterior) so it is on the bench and I have vice grips on the input shaft.
Click to expand...
On a four-speed you can take the end cap off and see the position of the three shift rods, makes it easy to know which if any gear is selected. I don't know if this works on a five-speed, might be that the fifth gear/synchro/fork blocks the view of the 1/2 and 3/4 rods.
 
I need to look at it closer. Once I found it wasn't shifting right I got discouraged with the idea of having to tear it apart. So I just left it for the time being, hoping I was looking at the shift pattern wrong. I guess it's possible for something internally to have become displaced from getting bumped around. But you really wouldn't expect that. After all it gets a lot of that all the time in use.

If I end up having to go inside then I'll have to decide how much to do. It was working fine with no issues... didn't even leak. However once it's open it might be worth going through everything.
 
I had a couple of minutes to take a second look at the shifting action today. It might not be as bad as I thought, but still isn't quite right either.

First off, I was wrong about not finding a true "neutral". Turns out I was seeing the hubs turn due to internal drag while it was in the 'neutral' position. Once I held the hubs still it became clear that it was indeed in neutral. Guess I was in too much of a hurry the other day to pay closer attention.

Additionally, I do get 1st, 2nd, 3rd, and 4th like I thought. Had marked the hub and shaft and counted the revolutions to confirm that.

Finally, 5th and reverse are there but I still seem to have a problem. Yesterday I couldn't find them at all. Turns out that's because it is VERY difficult to engage them. I have to place a considerable amount of torque rotating the input shaft AND considerable force pushing it in/out to make it happen. It kind of feels like maybe the input shaft isn't rotating quite as far as it should? Or if it is, then it's much too difficult to move in/out. As if it needs to be 'forced' into either 5th or reverse. I don't think the regular shifting linkage in the car would do it.

Therefore all of the gears do exist, and can be engaged. But 5th and reverse have way too much resistance getting there. At the moment I'm not sure what would cause that. Everything was fine before. I'll have to review the transmission assembly procedure and see if something stands out. Hopefully some sort of adjustment or such and not a bent or broken component. I'll reach out to @Steve Hoelscher in the meantime. But if anyone has thoughts on it please post. Thanks
 
Last edited:
After doing some research I came up empty handed for any explanation on this. In the meantime I decide to flush the trans, still hoping I won't need to open it up. Interestingly the flush made it a little easier to shift into gear, but 5th and reverse were still rather difficult to engage. Although the more I played with it the better 5th gear became. So now I'm wondering if things were just "sticky" inside after being in storage and more movement in and out of reverse will improve things further. Still no leaks and otherwise it all feels and sounds really good. Maybe wishful thinking but I may do nothing until I can reinstall it and give it a try in situ.
 
Dr.Jeff said:
After doing some research I came up empty handed for any explanation on this. In the meantime I decide to flush the trans, still hoping I won't need to open it up. Interestingly the flush made it a little easier to shift into gear, but 5th and reverse were still rather difficult to engage. Although the more I played with it the better 5th gear became. So now I'm wondering if things were just "sticky" inside after being in storage and more movement in and out of reverse will improve things further. Still no leaks and otherwise it all feels and sounds really good. Maybe wishful thinking but I may do nothing until I can reinstall it and give it a try in situ.
Click to expand...
As I recall there is a spring which creates a detent to keep you out of reverse and limit inadvertant movement to 5th. With a decent lever called the shifter it is easy to overcome. With a pair of pliers mounted parallel to the shift shaft you have much less mechanical advantage.
 
kmead said:
As I recall there is a spring which creates a detent to keep you out of reverse and limit inadvertant movement to 5th. With a decent lever called the shifter it is easy to overcome. With a pair of pliers mounted parallel to the shift shaft you have much less mechanical advantage.
Click to expand...
Thanks for the feedback, I agree. With that in mind I was using two vice grips; one parallel to the shaft to push/pull in/out, and one perpendicular to it to twist. I had to do it that way because it was so difficult to turn. So hopefully I had plenty of leverage. And it was easy to feel the difference between turning it the opposite direction (i.e. 1st/2nd) than 5th/reverse. Which makes me think I was overcoming the detent spring resistance, but it was significant. However it is possible the shifter has more leverage than I imagine, due to it being a fulcrum-lever arrangement. At least that's what I'm hoping. Another possibility that has occured to me is the spring/detent ball assembly might have become dislodged or otherwise malaligned while it was being stored (more on that in a moment).

Before removing the trans from the car I changed the gear lube, with the intent that I was not going to remove it (it worked great). However later on I changed my plans so the trans was drained (again) before removing it a couple years ago. And it has sat stored in my garage since then. I'm not concerned about condensation inside because we have zero moisture in our air....things simply do not get moist/rusty/corroded here. For example, after many years of heavy use of my shop compressor there is zero water in the large tank...not a drop. Therefore I do not think the inside of the trans became contaminated while stored. However it got moved about many times with a lot of bumping and jostling about. Perhaps at some point that caused something inside to get misaligned?

After my recent cleaning of the outside I added several quarts of very light detergent oil and rotated the trans in all six positions - allowing it to sit for a few hours each time. Then I repeated the process but worked the shift selector into various gears and rotated the input drive shaft while in each position. My hope was this would lube everything, help clean out any residual old lube/grime, and get things moving. And it seems to have improved the shifting as I described in post # 7. Unfortunately reverse is still quite difficult to find.
 
@kmead's post got me thinking about things more. Using two pairs of vice grips on the selector shaft was a bit wonky. They have a tendency to pivot, slip, or come off at the most inopportune times. So I decided to fab up a little tool to use instead of the vice grips. I dug out a couple pieces of scrap metal and welded them into a "T" shape. Drilled a hole and bolted it to the selector shaft. That way with one hand I can control the rotation and in/out movements better. Also allowing my other hand to stabilize the transmission at the same time.

With the tool I repeated the 'flushing' procedure - moving the entire trans unit into every position, shifting through the gears, and spinning the drive input shaft with a cordless drill. It seems to have helped with the gear selection a little more. For the most part the left/right rotation and in/out push/pull movements are good. Now 1st through 4th are very smooth and easy to engage (noticeably improved from before). 5th is still a little stiffer to push in but I think it is ok. Reverse definitely continues to be the most difficult; it will rotate ok but requires a really hard 'yank' to bring it out and engage the gear. However I think it will be ok as well.

I want to believe things got a little 'gummy' from storage, causing the difficult shifting. And the flushing process has cleaned that up. For now I'll leave the light oil in it and try to remember to work everything like I described a few more times. Hopefully it will function correctly once it is back in the car (which is still some time away).

Something else I noticed. Apparently reverse has some wear on the teeth that I don't remember. Because a couple of times I did not get the selector quite far enough out and the gear was chattering when I turned the drive input shaft. Another yank out on the selector and it was fine. I know Steve H has said this is very common. Although I don't recall it happening before the car began the restoration process, but honestly I did not drive it that much then.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top