Unpredictable Starting

So last time I tried to drive my X (weeks ago) the starter was weak and felt like it was grinding, and eventually it just stopped working altogether and the car wouldn’t start.

So I bought a new starter and replaced that last night, easy peasy other than working in the tight confines under the car.

First turn of the key and the starter engaged and I was like “hell yeah I fixed it”, but the car wasn’t starting right away (which is typical), so I let off the key and let it sit for a second. When I go to turn the key again, it just clicks and the starter won’t turn over, so back to where I was. Video for example:

Someone had suggested that maybe there was some bind in the transmission or something and to rock it in gear to try and free it up. I did that and then the starter engaged again and the car started right up. But the starter seems to randomly engage now. Sometimes I turn the key and it works great and sometimes I turn the key and it just clicks. Which means I can’t drive it because it might die and just click when I try to restart it.

Electrical fault somewhere? Or something else?
 
I dunno....but kinda sounds like the solenoid portion of the starter has an intermittent fault. They can go like that if the contacts inside are not right.

Can you define "new starter" ? Like NEW...or Rebuilt.....or used "new to you" ??
 
Haven't done the brown wire mod yet, it's on the top of the list though.
@rx1900 Starter is a rebuilt Magnetti Marelli and I tested it before I installed it and it worked fine. The connector for the red/white wire going to the starter seemed a little loose, maybe that's causing an intermittent fault? I was just thrown off a bit because rocking the car in gear seemed to help, but that could just be coincidence.
 
I tested it before I installed it and it worked fine.
I would be tempted to test it in situ - i.e. piggy back onto the solenoid connector a flying cable that you can then reach down and touch by hand onto the main power terminal at the starter motor itself where the battery feed terminates - this will eliminate any issues with fuse box power and perhaps more likely, the ignition switch. Just turn the ignition on and then short the cable and if it always starts, the motor is fine so you can look elsewhere. Important - take out of gear first!
 
Haven't done the brown wire mod yet, it's on the top of the list though.
@rx1900 Starter is a rebuilt Magnetti Marelli and I tested it before I installed it and it worked fine. The connector for the red/white wire going to the starter seemed a little loose, maybe that's causing an intermittent fault? I was just thrown off a bit because rocking the car in gear seemed to help, but that could just be coincidence.

Okay...hmmm. Perhaps...check that there is a good ground from the engine to the chassis. That it a braided strap that goes from one of the tranny bolts to a bolt into the rear chassis member. Check if that strap is still sound and the connections are clean. As a test you have nothing to lose by temporarily running a battery booster cable from a clean part of the engine right to the negative battery post and see if that makes a difference....

If you suspect that small red/white wire is not getting a good connection at the starter...or perhaps is not supplying a full consistent 12.5 volts when you turn the key.....perhaps you could find a long chunk of wire.....crimp a spade connector onto one end with bare other end. Disconnect the original connector on the starter......and instead push on the new connector. Then...very carefully.....touch the other bare end onto the positive battery post. Make sure the car is in neutral. Touching that wire end onto the positive battery post should engage the starter consistently when you do so...
 
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I have that on mine, and it was the ignition switch. If its this, 3 options occur. Fit a relay, fit a push to start button or new ignition switch. If you do the ignition switch you may also want to do the brown wire mod/renew the power to the switch. A relay will however protect the switch.

So arguably fit a relay is the neatest solution.

What I did as I was in a hurry was fit a push to start button, essentially goes from the main power on the starter (the big nut) to the solenoid spade connector. When the switch is pressed the solenoid should engage and the starter spin. Essentially a more permanent solution of point 5
 
Haven't done the brown wire mod yet, it's on the top of the list though.
@rx1900 Starter is a rebuilt Magnetti Marelli and I tested it before I installed it and it worked fine. The connector for the red/white wire going to the starter seemed a little loose, maybe that's causing an intermittent fault? I was just thrown off a bit because rocking the car in gear seemed to help, but that could just be coincidence.
I strongly don’t recommend the brown wire mod. It just puts more possible amperage behind an already compromised contact/contacts in the ignition switch. Adding relays to the high power draw components (headlights, wipers and so on). Switched power can be run through relays taking all the load off the relays.

I would respectfully suggest putting in a starter relay. This would ensure your solenoid gets a full 30 amps and not add any load onto the rest of the electrical system and its components. There are a number of how tos for this. It is a simple modification to do. I mounted my relay in the spare tire well and was able to use the existing red wire from the starter to actuate the relay and then ran a new wire to the solenoid from the relay. Power to the relay comes from the main power delivery stud on the starter.
 
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3rd for starter relay. The solenoid takes a lot of amperage to draw the pinion into the flywheel. My car started clicking intermittently and a starter relay fixed it. As Karl has said, the stock harness makes the current go through a lot of high resistance contacts from the battery because there is no relay bringing it direct. I spent an extra $10 to get a nice quality 80 amp relay with "sealed" contacts. 80 is overkill but the headroom ensures I won't burn it up on a hot day of errand running and the sealed contacts allowed me to mount it in the engine compartment next to the starter.
 
When I bought the car the PO asked, “do you know anything about wiring?” And when I said “not really”, and he said “you better learn”, I should’ve listened.

Thanks everyone!
 
Hard start relay

This is from another thread originally and a will be a ‘how to’ I will get around to doing. This was done on a FI car so yours will be a little different and involve one less wire.

The starter relay is more involved in regards to what you need to do and requires unwrapping the loom in the spare tire well to pull out an existing wire which you will use in two ways. You will be adding a wire to carry power from the main lug of the starter to the new relay and of course adding a grounding wire.

You will need:
  • One inline crimp splice connector with heat shrink - 12-10 AWG Clear Seal Heat-Shrink Butt Splice Terminal (not a big fan of these but its what you need)
  • One 10mm ring crimp connector for 10ga wire
  • One 8mm ring crimp connector for 12-16ga wire
  • Two locking female spade connectors for 10ga wire to go into a relay base
  • Two locking female spade connectors for 16ga wire to to into a relay base
  • One relay base
  • One relay, normally open 4 pin 35amp with diode. This is the same relay you used for the low beams.
  • 3’ of 12 or 16ga wire, I use black for ground and red for power
  • 3’-4’ of 10ga wire, I used red
  • Nice to have is a fuse holder for a 30 amp fuse which accommodates 10ga wire. The existing circuits are not fused, if you feel confident about your work then don’t use a fuse in the power supply wire or choose a relay which has a fuse holder built into it. Like these (but buy a name brand):https://www.amazon.com/Nilight-50023R-Automotive-Wires-Auto-Switches/dp/B07PK7F1MC/ref=sr_1_4?crid=27FD6HTCRQL2P&keywords=Fused+relay&qid=1658089056&s=automotive&sprefix=fused+relay,automotive,122&sr=1-4
Remove both the positive and negative terminals/wires from the car battery.

The starter has four wires to it if it is fuel injected. The main lug of the starter has two wires, a very heavy red one which brings power from the battery, a medium thick black one which carries power from the alternator to the starter (and is how the power is carried back to the battery from the alternator.) There are two wires to the solenoid, one from the ignition switch and the other to the double relay (1979/80 carb cars may have a second wire as well due to emissions equipment ). An early X will have only one wire to the solenoid coming from the ignition switch.

For a Fuel Injected X, the starter solenoid as two wires, one red and one red with a black stripe, which are crimped onto a single female spade terminal which goes to the starter solenoid male spade terminal. The all red wire is 10ga and comes from the ignition switch, carrying power to the solenoid to engage the starter when you turn the key to the start position. The second wire is 12ga red with a black stripe, this carries power back to the double relay to cause the double relay to run the fuel pump when the starter is running. An early carbureted car will not have the second wire going back into the loom as there is no double relay.

Unplug the paired red wires from the starter solenoid, do not do anything to this connector you will be using this exactly as is. Loosen and remove the nut on the starter main lug holding the large red wire and the black wire.

What you will be doing is making a new 10ga wire which will have a ring terminal on one end to be added to the wires on the main starter lug and a female locking spade on the other end to go into the relay holder. This will bring always hot power to the starter relay. You will make a 8” long 12-16ga wire with a locking female terminal on one end and a ring crimp connector on the other end to be the ground for the relay.

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Ok now for the fun part.

This is easiest if you remove your passenger seat and the cover for the spare tire area. To remove the seat, take a 6mm allen key (I think its 6) and slide the seat all the way back. Under the front of the seat you will see the seat slides, there is a allen socket head fastener there. Loosen the fasteners (one at the front of each track) a number of turns so the seat can be lifted just a bit, you don’t have to take the fasteners out but if you want to do a bunch of tedious work with your Allen key go for it, I am lazy). Now slide the seat all the way forward, you will see two Philips screw heads, undo these completely. As they go all the way through the floor pan of the car you might go under head the spray some lubricant on them to make them come out easier. You might also consider a hammer drill if they are at all recalcitrant. Once the two screws are removed you can slide the seat forward about half an inch and lift up on the front of the seat and the allen bolts will come through the keyhole slots and you can remove the seat completely.

Remove the spare tire cover by removing the philips screws holding the black metal bracket holding the vinyl cover in place. Remove the spare tire. Remove the clamp connector holding the 5/8” heater supply hose to give yourself some more room.

Along the tunnel you will see a thick wire bundle wrapped in tape. There are a few bent over metal retainers in the spare tire area you will bend out of the way. Up above you will see the double relay which has the its own wiring, you won’t be touching that, there is also a second relay which runs the FI injector cooling fan, again you won’t be touching that unless you want to (I moved mine up higher so I could use the threaded stud to mount my new relay).

Take an 18” length of red 12-16ga wire and crimp a locking female spade connector at one end to go into the relay holder. The other end your will be eventually crimping the inline connector to it and the red 10ga wire coming from the ignition switch.

Pull the wire bundle out and carefully slit the electrical tape covering, starting at the floor and going up to just above the top of the tunnel. Buried in the bundle is a 10ga red wire, this is the wire running from the ignition switch to the starter solenoid. Pull it out of the bundle so you can access the 10ga wire near the floor. If you are not confident you have the right wire you can test for continuity by testing between the 10ga wire you have found and the red with black leader wire going into the double relay, as these wires are connected at the female spade connector they will have continuity when tested. If you have a steel pin you can pierce the insulation touch your meter to and then poke the other probe into the bottom of the double relay connector where the red with black leader wire goes into it to ensure the wires are connected at the female spade connector at the starter.

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You will be cutting this wire to bring a wire to the relay to switch the relay “on“. You will cut the wire, apply an inline connector, crimp it to the 10 ga wire on one side, then crimp in an 24-36” length of 12-16ga wire and apply heat to seal the crimped connector to the wires (10ga on one side of the connector and 12-16ga on the other). I say this so that you consider the cut carefully as you will be down in the corner and access won’t be good. You are trying to maximize the amount of the 10ga wire you will be using to go from the new relay to carry power to the starter solenoid and still be able to work with what is sticking out of the harness at the floor. I cut mine such that I had 1.5” of the wire sticking out of the harness to crimp the 12-16ga wire to the 10ga wire coming from the ignition switch.

FYI, have a fire extinguisher handy when you use heat or flame on the crimp connector, the sound insulation is very flammable. It is bad form to burn your car down while heating heat shrink tubing…

OK so now you have a length of 10ga red wire coming from the firewall side and the 12-16ga red wire you just crimped onto the wire coming from the ignition switch. Pull the 10ga up out of the bundle to where it goes into the bundle where it goes through the firewall into the engine bay.

Weave the 12-16ga wire into the wire bundle such that it will thenemerge where the 10ga wire goes into the engine bay and wrap the bundle in electrical tape leaving the 10ga wire and the 12-16ga wire coming out at the top of the tunnel to be able to go to your new relay. For my new relay I used the threaded stud the FI fan relay was attached to and moved that one up with a new fastener (I used a short sheet metal screw, the gas tank is behind that wall so it was a notably short screw).

Now crimp on the locking female spade to the 10ga wire and insert it into the relay holder in the 87 position (you should have enough slack in the wire to place the relay on the existing threaded stud for the fan relay). Insert the red 12-16ga wire with connector into the 85 position. The wire with the other ring connector will go on the threaded stud (use a toothed washer to ensure good ground) and the locking female connector into the 86 position of the relay holder.

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For the power wire I crimped on the 10mm ring connector to the 10ga wire. Pushed the 10ga wire with the ring connector on it through the black flap where the acclerator cable goes into the engine bay. I then put together the new wire with the existing large red wire and the black wire onto the main lug of the starter. Make sure you feed the new 10ga wire into the rubber boot so it is protected along with the other wires. Fix the new red wire to other wires leading up to the flap into the spare tire area such that it doesn’t foul on anything but has enough slack for engine movement and for when/if you have to replace your starter. I left an extra loop in the spare tire compartment so it can be pulled a bit into the engine bay if needed. The new red wire will go into the relay’s 30 position.

Back in the spare tire compartment I trimmed the new 10ga power wire to easily reach the relay position, crimped on the female spade and inserted it into the relay holder 30 position

Install the relay, attach the battery, put the spare tire cover back on, put the spare back in and reinstall the passenger seat.

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For those looking carefully at my pic you will notice I did mine on this car slightly differently. The PO, who I dislike mightily, had used a wire tap to reinstall the red wire with black leader to the main red wire at the solenoid spade connection. This had caused intermittent starting issues in the past so on my install I cut the red with black leader wire in the spare tire compartment and crimped it onto the red wire at the relay 87 position. The exact way this is done will change a bit in the future as I used some parts I had on hand to do this and it is less than ideal (cheap relay holder with cheapo connectors, all the things I say not to do…) as I only found the PO’s handiwork when replacing the coolant hoses. The wires will get some future tidying so it is a bit less of a rats nest with extra wire length.
 
Karl has a very detailed and accurate method, but I am much lazier than Karl. :) I bought a couple kit's from the Vanagon guy years ago. I pulled this unit off the parts shelf this afternoon and took a picture. Just for Karl. 😈😁

Here is a picture of the kit which represents a very direct method of installing a hard start relay, but does leave you with extra long wires. There is a fuse holder inline on the power wire into the relay. I added some notes in case you want to try to reproduce it.
20230923_135924 notes.jpg

And a picture of it in the 85's spare tire well, bolted onto an existing stud under an existing relay. YMMV on existing bits since you have a 78. Note that you also feed all three power and trigger wires thru the firewall with this type of spare tire well install. If you get a heat/weather proof relay, you can mount in the engine bay and all the wires along with it.
20210719_182733.jpg

I will now return to my in process master bath plumbing project. Things are a lot less wet in the last hour.🚰🛁🔧 When you tell yourself "Those 30 year old o-rings will be fine", just remember, you are probably wrong.
 
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When I bought the car the PO asked, “do you know anything about wiring?” And when I said “not really”, and he said “you better learn”, I should’ve listened.

Thanks everyone!
Just part of the mystique of owning a Italian car. :p

Being an intermittent issue would make me want to start with cleaning and securing all related connections and checking all related wires for condition. Then on to the relays.....yes plural. In addition to the starter relay (as was well detailed in the post by Karl), consider a few additional ones for other heavy load components. The more stuff you can unload from the key switch the better. And I'm with Karl; improving the brown wire (brown wire mod or BWM) only adds to the problematic design. Relays on the other hand resolve it. But maybe we should clarify what is meant by the BWM, as may people get it confused with other electrical system upgrades. From what I've always understood it is about increasing the capacity of the main power wire (i.e. the brown wire) going into the key switch. And nothing more. Other improvements like adding relays are not part of the BWM. Ideally you will add a new power post fed directly from the battery (with a battery cable), and power all added relays from it. Then the original wires to each newly relayed component become just the "trigger" wires to the relays. Therefore taking the load away from the key switch. Now no real need to increase the capacity of the brown wire to the key.

And as others have stated, it is also possible the rebuilt starter/solenoid is defective. It happens more than you would imagine.
 
Appreciate the lengthy and knowledgeable answers all.

To update, I cleaned all the connections the other day and there was no improvement in starter engagement. So today I replaced the connector going to the starter because the old one was pretty crusty. No improvement there either. Then we ran a switch direct off the battery to hot wire it and it started strong every push of the switch, so looks like we are going to wire in a push button start for the time being. Just hoping to get it to start reliably these last couple months of nice weather before I hopefully engine swap this winter.

Fortunately my father has some electrical engineering background and stuff like this is a cake walk for him. Hence why I haven’t learned anything about wiring yet…

Thanks for the help all.
 
Glad you found the starter is good and have a work around.

I have a push to start button and after this and similar posts and thinking about it more, I am seriously considering swapping over to a relay. easy to do and makes more sense the more I think about it
 
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