Engine and trans was put in a few weeks ago and today we were doing the starter, distributor and so on. So hooked up a batterie and it turns over, has spark, feeding gas in the carb ourselves and had a small hint of life but just won't start. I have given up for tonight and going to think about it with a stiff drink.
Update on my X engine swap
- Thread starter wcarter4
- Start date
Jim that pic helped cause I marked my cap from my book and totally different, I threw that book in the trash and using a different manual to finish. Can't do anymore today, bucks gome on and wrecked the batterie so I think I need to step away for a bit and calm down. It is so close to running so I'll just work on the a-arms and axles and other stuff, there is always next weekend!
Check your cap
I think there are a couple different styles of cap and that can cause some confusion. This pic gives you the proper plug firing order on the block... for the cap style that is pictures.
Just be sure to look in your cap and that you are satisfied that the contacts inside the cap lead out to the external contact you put the plug wire on.
And yes... sometimes we need to walk away. Just to give the X some "alone time" so that it can contemplate the grief it is giving its owner. Usually when you come back the car is in a more agreeable mood.. or you are.
I think there are a couple different styles of cap and that can cause some confusion. This pic gives you the proper plug firing order on the block... for the cap style that is pictures.
Just be sure to look in your cap and that you are satisfied that the contacts inside the cap lead out to the external contact you put the plug wire on. And yes... sometimes we need to walk away. Just to give the X some "alone time" so that it can contemplate the grief it is giving its owner. Usually when you come back the car is in a more agreeable mood.. or you are.
I think a lot of this has to do with the fact that it's a '74 with a 79 1500 motor that was put in, but that motor was junk when I bought the car so now I am going back to a 1300, unsure of the year, and I am keeping the electronic ignition and I have never done anything this extensive on a resto project.
AngleT
Always more tuning to do
TDC and timing
TDC (Top Dead Center) mark on the crank and cam align with #4 spark plug when timing everything up, NOT #1. The firing order is in fact 1342 and rotates in a clockwise direction. Different caps can be confusing so check the inside leads with the outside plug.
A unique car requires unique knowledge. :dunce:
TDC (Top Dead Center) mark on the crank and cam align with #4 spark plug when timing everything up, NOT #1. The firing order is in fact 1342 and rotates in a clockwise direction. Different caps can be confusing so check the inside leads with the outside plug.
A unique car requires unique knowledge. :dunce:
Wyverndude
True Classic
#1 vs #4
Ya ... it seems this board is unanimously in agreement that TDC lines up with #4 spark ... but my current FI X1/9 1500 lines up with #1 with the cam at the TDC mark.
I've also owned a 1974, a 1978, and a 1979; and ... what I can say positively for a fact is that I did change the timing belts on each of those cars at least once, and I lined up to #1, and I did get each of those cars running.
It is *possible* that I just kept playing around until I accidentally lined it up with #4 and it started and I didn't notice and I've since forgotten (all of those were 20+ years ago) but the car in my garage right now is running (well, not right at this moment) and it lines up at #1. Oh, and I've recently recalled that I've had two different (stock) heads -complete with their own camshafts- on it.
It's impossible that the unanimous agreement of this chat board is wrong, and it's also impossible that it's a confusion of nomenclature (JimD's excellent illustration eliminates that possibility) so ... the only conclusion seems to be that there are *some* X1/9's out there that are timed to #1.
I believe the way for you to get to the bottom of it -for your individual case- is to look at the cam lobes. You want the distributor rotor pointed at #1 when the #1 cam lobes are pointing up.
Ya ... it seems this board is unanimously in agreement that TDC lines up with #4 spark ... but my current FI X1/9 1500 lines up with #1 with the cam at the TDC mark.
I've also owned a 1974, a 1978, and a 1979; and ... what I can say positively for a fact is that I did change the timing belts on each of those cars at least once, and I lined up to #1, and I did get each of those cars running.
It is *possible* that I just kept playing around until I accidentally lined it up with #4 and it started and I didn't notice and I've since forgotten (all of those were 20+ years ago) but the car in my garage right now is running (well, not right at this moment) and it lines up at #1. Oh, and I've recently recalled that I've had two different (stock) heads -complete with their own camshafts- on it.
It's impossible that the unanimous agreement of this chat board is wrong, and it's also impossible that it's a confusion of nomenclature (JimD's excellent illustration eliminates that possibility) so ... the only conclusion seems to be that there are *some* X1/9's out there that are timed to #1.
I believe the way for you to get to the bottom of it -for your individual case- is to look at the cam lobes. You want the distributor rotor pointed at #1 when the #1 cam lobes are pointing up.
Black-Tooth
Tony Natoli
Mr. Carter and Mr. Dude...
I ain't no pro and I've been known to be wrong and there ain't no two X1/9's exactly alike... but in the 27 years I've been screwing with these cars off and on...
CAM TIMING = At its mark, Crank at TDC, dizzy rotor pointing at number FOUR!
IGNITION TIMING = Crank at TDC, dizzy rotor pointing at number ONE!
(The cam timing mark COULD HAVE been arbitrarilly placed anywhere, at number ONE, for instance, its just NOT what the engineers decided to do...)
Firing Order = 1342... same year the Vikings discovered America...
(The firing order is correct, the Viking thing is B.S.)
Now go have fun without frustrating yourselves...
I ain't no pro and I've been known to be wrong and there ain't no two X1/9's exactly alike... but in the 27 years I've been screwing with these cars off and on...
CAM TIMING = At its mark, Crank at TDC, dizzy rotor pointing at number FOUR!
IGNITION TIMING = Crank at TDC, dizzy rotor pointing at number ONE!
(The cam timing mark COULD HAVE been arbitrarilly placed anywhere, at number ONE, for instance, its just NOT what the engineers decided to do...)
Firing Order = 1342... same year the Vikings discovered America...
(The firing order is correct, the Viking thing is B.S.)
Now go have fun without frustrating yourselves...
Mark Plaia
True Classic
And, Mr. Carter.....
Get yourself a FIAT factory shop manual. There have been numerous mistakes identified over the years in the Haynes, Chilton, etc. manuals. The factory manual is the bible for technical specs and repairs on your cars. Accept no substitutes.
Ciao,
Get yourself a FIAT factory shop manual. There have been numerous mistakes identified over the years in the Haynes, Chilton, etc. manuals. The factory manual is the bible for technical specs and repairs on your cars. Accept no substitutes.
Ciao,
Giving me too much credit
Hi Wyverndude,
You give me too much credit. The picture was posted long ago by someone else, I just added 4 extra dots on top of the cap to show where the internal contacts were positioned in relation to the caps external contacts.
I just wanted to mention that we could be having a bit of confusion based the on task we are working on. What I had done was replace my cam box gasket, not a straight forward change of a t-belt.
In the t-belt change instructions, the shop manual says to line up the cam and crank marks, then carefully replace the belt. It does not mention where to point the rotor. If you don't move the cam, aux or crank pulley, you have not changed the timing and the car will start because it was running previously with the pulleys in this position.
When you pull the cam box off (or do other major dis-assembly), you can't guarantee that the pulleys are in the same position as prior to the work. This is where setting the "static timing" with the rotor pointing to #4 comes into play. Without the t-belt installed, you rotate the cam pulley to its TDC mark, you rotate the crank pulley to its TDC mark and you rotate the aux pulley to position the rotor pointing to the #4 contact in your cap. Now carefully put the belt on and the car will start. I have done this twice now, so I used the word "will" instead of "should". Call me Mr. Confidence. :dance2:
Having said all that, I have no idea how your car is set up. In the previous thread where we discussed this topic, it was pointed out that it is possible to install the distributor 180 degrees off from the normal alignment. Something like that could account for a disagreement on which cylinder to set the static timing to.
Here is how we gather more data on this situation: Next time you are bored, you could take off your t-belt. Then spin the cam pulley 3 times, the crank pulley twice, and aux pulley a few times. (NOTE: This is probably not advisable on an early 1300 with an interference engine) Then try re-aligning everything according to the static timing method I used and see what happens. Sounds like fun... right!?!?
OK. I know no one gets that bored. I only went through this exercise because my X was looking like a fog machine for the first 15 minutes on each drive till the oil from the leaky cam box gasket burned off the exhaust.
Hi Wyverndude,
You give me too much credit. The picture was posted long ago by someone else, I just added 4 extra dots on top of the cap to show where the internal contacts were positioned in relation to the caps external contacts.
I just wanted to mention that we could be having a bit of confusion based the on task we are working on. What I had done was replace my cam box gasket, not a straight forward change of a t-belt.
In the t-belt change instructions, the shop manual says to line up the cam and crank marks, then carefully replace the belt. It does not mention where to point the rotor. If you don't move the cam, aux or crank pulley, you have not changed the timing and the car will start because it was running previously with the pulleys in this position.
When you pull the cam box off (or do other major dis-assembly), you can't guarantee that the pulleys are in the same position as prior to the work. This is where setting the "static timing" with the rotor pointing to #4 comes into play. Without the t-belt installed, you rotate the cam pulley to its TDC mark, you rotate the crank pulley to its TDC mark and you rotate the aux pulley to position the rotor pointing to the #4 contact in your cap. Now carefully put the belt on and the car will start. I have done this twice now, so I used the word "will" instead of "should". Call me Mr. Confidence. :dance2:
Having said all that, I have no idea how your car is set up.
In the previous thread where we discussed this topic, it was pointed out that it is possible to install the distributor 180 degrees off from the normal alignment. Something like that could account for a disagreement on which cylinder to set the static timing to.Here is how we gather more data on this situation: Next time you are bored, you could take off your t-belt. Then spin the cam pulley 3 times, the crank pulley twice, and aux pulley a few times. (NOTE: This is probably not advisable on an early 1300 with an interference engine) Then try re-aligning everything according to the static timing method I used and see what happens. Sounds like fun... right!?!?
OK. I know no one gets that bored. I only went through this exercise because my X was looking like a fog machine for the first 15 minutes on each drive till the oil from the leaky cam box gasket burned off the exhaust.
As of now I kind of given up, that may be cause I'm just tired or upset, I will take all the advice and thank you all but I have done engine work for many years and I am just stumped and don't want to keep trying different things, I'm just going to have to have someone else take a look at it and just show me what I am doing wrong or if I am missing something. So if anyone knows someone in the Milwaukee area let me know. Plus there is a lot more stuff that I can work on, my son is installing the a-arms and axels, and I got to bleed breaks and clutch.
Rupunzell
Bernice Loui
Rupunzell
Bernice Loui
+10 !!
Accept no substitutes.. Get a official FIAT or Bertone service manual. They are well worth it in many ways.
Bernice
Accept no substitutes.. Get a official FIAT or Bertone service manual. They are well worth it in many ways.
Bernice
bikesandcars
True Classic
I'll share my recent experience while mixing a 76 and 80 build together.....I'm going to sound like an idiot, but I'll take one for the better of the team.
Note the 1976 (1300) and 1980 (1500) share many parts. The cam shafts for example, as far as I can tell, are identical...except for this little thing called the alignment pin (and cam gear). I discovered that the pins on the 1300 are about 180 degrees out from the pins on the 1500.. I initially built a 1500 motor using a 1300 sport cam / head and a 1500 cam sprocket (should have checked the valve opening sequence)...I just assumed they were all the same... which made it almost start several times.... I then installed the correct cam sprocket, timed the ignition on TDC Cylinder 1, and it works wonderfully.
I suggest you open the oil cap and look at the position of the valves at TDC, then set the distributor on number 1 at the correct firing TDC for cylinder 1, which should coincidently line up cam and crank timing marks.
I also noticed the ignition timing seems pretty touchy. I had to rotate the distributor back and forth until I found the best sounding spot
I can't guarantee the 1976 and 1980 timing pins are exactly 180 degrees apart, but they look close.
Note the 1976 (1300) and 1980 (1500) share many parts. The cam shafts for example, as far as I can tell, are identical...except for this little thing called the alignment pin (and cam gear). I discovered that the pins on the 1300 are about 180 degrees out from the pins on the 1500.. I initially built a 1500 motor using a 1300 sport cam / head and a 1500 cam sprocket (should have checked the valve opening sequence)...I just assumed they were all the same... which made it almost start several times.... I then installed the correct cam sprocket, timed the ignition on TDC Cylinder 1, and it works wonderfully.
I suggest you open the oil cap and look at the position of the valves at TDC, then set the distributor on number 1 at the correct firing TDC for cylinder 1, which should coincidently line up cam and crank timing marks.
I also noticed the ignition timing seems pretty touchy. I had to rotate the distributor back and forth until I found the best sounding spot
I can't guarantee the 1976 and 1980 timing pins are exactly 180 degrees apart, but they look close.