Welding rear quarter panels

Jeff Fischer

Daily Driver
Hey guys
The next step of my 77 car project is fixing the rusted back quarter panels of my car. My plan is to cut out the rust from the panel then flange the remaining part of the panel so I can insert a new piece of metal with punched out holes. I would then use a MIG welder to fill in the holes with flux core weld and around the edge of the new metal. My question is, should I be using flux core weld or mig weld?. I bought a welder (Lincoln 140) which will do either type. If I can use the flux core, what gauge of wire should I use and is there a recommended setting on the welder. If the suggestion is to use the MIG weld, what type of wire and welder setting? Let me know your opinions

Thx Jeff
 
Jeff, If I understand correctly, you are asking if you should use non-gas flux-core MIG wire, or gas-shielded non-flux-core MIG wire? If I got that right, gas shielding is much cleaner - especially for thin sheet metal. A smaller gauge wire and low heat setting will help prevent warpage and blow-through. And you really don't need to flange and spot weld it. Just butt weld the edges flush together. There are lots of YouTube videos on how to do it if you like to see examples.
Otherwise, if I got your question wrong please ask again.
 
My short 2 cents (I could go on for pages). A photo of what you're doing would be nice.

I would definitely avoid using a flange and plug-welding the holes. It's not recommend because it's a moisture trap and lead to premature rusting. I bought a panel flanger in the beginning but have never used it. Butt welding is the recommended procedure but it takes a LOT of practice and patience. When welding overlapping sheet metal, you should treat the mating surfaces with weld-through primer. I like U-Pol's copper based primer. Heat from welding doesn't burn it off. Not a perfect solution but better than doing nothing.

Too much heat (voltage), holding the trigger too long, having too much of a gap or not having the gun at the right angle can blow a hole in the metal before you know it. Too little heat and you won't get enough penetration. Heat from welding can warp the sn@t out of a panel in the blink of an eye. Heat from grinding and sanding can also damage panels. If you mess up a weld dot, you can't just add more weld metal to it to try and fix it. You need to stop and grind/sand it down and redo it before moving to the next weld dot. Sometimes you can get tiny pinholes in your welding and you need to check for that (worklight behind pieces works well) and need to go back and weld them up as needed and also, sometimes when you sand/grind the welding, you can find spots where you have imperfections that need more weld on them.

Beware - there a plenty of youtube vids by folks that have no clue how to properly weld sheet thin metal (like there is on Fiats). Tig welding is good for thin sheet metal but a tig welder costs a fair bit more and has a much longer learning curve.

If you were to use a flange, how would you hold the pieces together? Cleco fasteners would be an option. Sometimes bodywork magnets will work. If you don't hold the pieces firmly together, it'll become a mess. If you butt weld the metal, you can use welding butt clamps like in the photo below of work on my 600 body where I was installing new rockers. You can see where I plug welded along the bottom of the rocker because there are 3 layers of metal and spot-welding isn't an option. When butt welding, it's important to have an even and correct gap along the entire seam. This can be a challenge when fitting up large replacement panels with lots of shape and corners. You need to avoid sharp corners in the pieces and want a rounded turn in direction. Must check the adjacent pieces after each weld dot for accurate alignment as you do weld dots along a seam. Each weld dot should be planished (hit with a hammer & dolly) to reverse the shrinking that occurs in the HAZ (heat affected zone) or if you don't you can make a total mess of the panels. It's not recommended, but on thin metal you may need to use a wet rag to cool the metal immediately after each weld dot. Some use a blow gun. Below is a photo showing what happens to thin metal when warpage from heat wasn't addressed. Sometimes you can run into dirty/contaminated metal that can ruin the welding and sometimes even the metallurgy of the original metal can be a factor.

Do you have a mig welder, have you welded any sheet metal with it and how much? If no experience, don't go out and buy a mig welder and watch a few youtube vids and think you'll do just fine. The heat setting will depend on your actual mig machine, the gauge you are welding and a few other factors. I could tell you what I set my voltage and speed at but will mean nothing for your situation. A cheap mig welder isn't worth buying and can cause problems. You want to mig weld with an Ar/CO2 gas mixture. Old school restorers use gas welding and "hammer weld" the butt welding as they go along by using a hammer & dolly while the metal is still red hot but is pretty tough to do along and it takes a lot of skill.

Besides a mig welder, you'll need an air compressor with adequate cfm and an angle die grinder. Then an assortment of different grits of roloc sanding discs. A thin 3" cutoff wheel works well for knocking down welds before sanding the welds down. I usually use 2" and 3" roloc discs but for larger and more flattish areas, you want a larger sanding surface like a DA sander in order to avoid make sure the smaller discs don't dig into the surface. Flap discs and flap wheels can be useful in some spots.

If you can't buy replacement panels, sometimes you need to take flat sheet metal and form it. Another skill/art to learn.

Ideally, you want to aim for a good result after sanding down the welds so that 1/16" or less of body filler is needed. You don't want to leave bare metal exposed and you need to get primer on it pdq. Epoxy primer is great stuff. Body filler can go over the primer and some filler works well on bare metal (like All-Metal brand). After you've got primer on, there is a window of about 2-7 days to get the topcoat of paint on for a chemical bond. Otherwise you need to scuff the primer up. You can "smooth up" your welding with the All-metal on bare metal and then prime. After that you may find you need to fine tune the initial filler work with some body putty over the primer. Finishing an area after welding to prep for painting is a whole other set of tools and know-how. You may need to get into learning how to use a guide coat, sanding blocks, etc.

When butt welding a seam, you start by doing weld dots about an inch apart and planish them as you go along. If the weld dot is too high, you need to grind/sand them down a bit. Then you go back and do more weld dots in between the first round of weld dots. When you get to the point of filling in the seam between the dots, you overlap weld dots so you completely fill in theBelow is a photo of modification I did to the rear fenders on my 600 body in order to widen the opening for tire clearance. I held the pieces together with butt clamps and took my time doing the welding.

If you aren't planning on doing a large restoration project now or in the future and just have the one area to deal with, you might consider just preparing the car and fitting up the replacement panel and then hiring someone to do the welding then take it over from there. If you could get it tig welded, all the better. I have a partial new rear quarter panel to weld up on my Abarth 1300/124 project and may do just that. There is part of the panel that I can't behind to hold a dolly for planishing and can't risk the welding turning out badly.

If you do decide to do your own welding, do lots and lots of practicing on scrap pieces of thin sheet (22 ga. and thinner) until you've got the hang of it. BTW, mig welding on thicker sheet metal like 12-16 gauge is MUCH easier and when you get into 1/8" and thicker, any monkey can do it... Don't forget to post some photos on how it turns out.

For some excellent how-to photos and advice, look up forum member "tonybmw" on the retrorides.com forum in England. Best info. I've found on the internet and he uses some pretty ordinary and low cost tools. He has one particular long thread that is fantastic (work on a BMW).

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Few more things. The "stickout" on the gun is very important and should be close to 1/8". Gas flow needs to be correct but once adjusted, don't need to change it. Keep the nozzle and tip clean at all times. There is a good little tool for cleaning the nozzle. Keep the wire trimmed and not too long. If it's bent, has a blob of melted metal on the end or is dirty, stop and trim it. Use a heavy gauge extension cord and keep it short as possible and make sure the wiring from receptacle to your house/shop panel isn't too long.

On your Lincoln 140 welder, that is a great choice for sheet metal. Mine is a Miller 135 amp. You want 0.023" wire. There is a type of wire called "Easy Grind" but I tried it and didn't find any difference. Do NOT buy cheap mig wire at places like Princess Auto as the alloy can be unsuitable and the copper coating may not be good either. Go to a shop that specializes in gas and welding supplies like Air Liquide and get your wire there. I can't recall the exact wire specs but I use "ordinary" mig wire and a welding shop will sell you the right stuff.

On eye protection, I totally love my Servore auto-darkening welding mask (see below). Always make sure your skin is completely covered because the UV rays from mig welding are intense and can cause 2nd and 3rd degree skin burns and even skin cancer from long-term exposure. Get a bad skin burn and you definitely won't let that happen again...

There's some good websites and forums with good info. and help on welding and working with sheet metal like weldingtipsand tricks.com, autobody101.com, garagejournal.com, hotrodders.com, weldingweb.com for example. I highly recommend spending some time at these places and learning what you can. FWIW, here's a good how NOT to mig weld thin sheet metal video:
Don't let that guy near your Fiat... :mad:

Mig welding is fun, fun, fun! When you realize what you can do with a mig welder, you suddenly might want to make all sorts of things like workbench, tool cart, equipment stands and much, much more!!

Full20pic-600x600.jpg
 
My short 2 cents (I could go on for pages). A photo of what you're doing would be nice.

I would definitely avoid using a flange and plug-welding the holes. It's not recommend because it's a moisture trap and lead to premature rusting. I bought a panel flanger in the beginning but have never used it. Butt welding is the recommended procedure but it takes a LOT of practice and patience. When welding overlapping sheet metal, you should treat the mating surfaces with weld-through primer. I like U-Pol's copper based primer. Heat from welding doesn't burn it off. Not a perfect solution but better than doing nothing.

Too much heat (voltage), holding the trigger too long, having too much of a gap or not having the gun at the right angle can blow a hole in the metal before you know it. Too little heat and you won't get enough penetration. Heat from welding can warp the sn@t out of a panel in the blink of an eye. Heat from grinding and sanding can also damage panels. If you mess up a weld dot, you can't just add more weld metal to it to try and fix it. You need to stop and grind/sand it down and redo it before moving to the next weld dot. Sometimes you can get tiny pinholes in your welding and you need to check for that (worklight behind pieces works well) and need to go back and weld them up as needed and also, sometimes when you sand/grind the welding, you can find spots where you have imperfections that need more weld on them.

Beware - there a plenty of youtube vids by folks that have no clue how to properly weld sheet thin metal (like there is on Fiats). Tig welding is good for thin sheet metal but a tig welder costs a fair bit more and has a much longer learning curve.

If you were to use a flange, how would you hold the pieces together? Cleco fasteners would be an option. Sometimes bodywork magnets will work. If you don't hold the pieces firmly together, it'll become a mess. If you butt weld the metal, you can use welding butt clamps like in the photo below of work on my 600 body where I was installing new rockers. You can see where I plug welded along the bottom of the rocker because there are 3 layers of metal and spot-welding isn't an option. When butt welding, it's important to have an even and correct gap along the entire seam. This can be a challenge when fitting up large replacement panels with lots of shape and corners. You need to avoid sharp corners in the pieces and want a rounded turn in direction. Must check the adjacent pieces after each weld dot for accurate alignment as you do weld dots along a seam. Each weld dot should be planished (hit with a hammer & dolly) to reverse the shrinking that occurs in the HAZ (heat affected zone) or if you don't you can make a total mess of the panels. It's not recommended, but on thin metal you may need to use a wet rag to cool the metal immediately after each weld dot. Some use a blow gun. Below is a photo showing what happens to thin metal when warpage from heat wasn't addressed. Sometimes you can run into dirty/contaminated metal that can ruin the welding and sometimes even the metallurgy of the original metal can be a factor.

Do you have a mig welder, have you welded any sheet metal with it and how much? If no experience, don't go out and buy a mig welder and watch a few youtube vids and think you'll do just fine. The heat setting will depend on your actual mig machine, the gauge you are welding and a few other factors. I could tell you what I set my voltage and speed at but will mean nothing for your situation. A cheap mig welder isn't worth buying and can cause problems. You want to mig weld with an Ar/CO2 gas mixture. Old school restorers use gas welding and "hammer weld" the butt welding as they go along by using a hammer & dolly while the metal is still red hot but is pretty tough to do along and it takes a lot of skill.

Besides a mig welder, you'll need an air compressor with adequate cfm and an angle die grinder. Then an assortment of different grits of roloc sanding discs. A thin 3" cutoff wheel works well for knocking down welds before sanding the welds down. I usually use 2" and 3" roloc discs but for larger and more flattish areas, you want a larger sanding surface like a DA sander in order to avoid make sure the smaller discs don't dig into the surface. Flap discs and flap wheels can be useful in some spots.

If you can't buy replacement panels, sometimes you need to take flat sheet metal and form it. Another skill/art to learn.

Ideally, you want to aim for a good result after sanding down the welds so that 1/16" or less of body filler is needed. You don't want to leave bare metal exposed and you need to get primer on it pdq. Epoxy primer is great stuff. Body filler can go over the primer and some filler works well on bare metal (like All-Metal brand). After you've got primer on, there is a window of about 2-7 days to get the topcoat of paint on for a chemical bond. Otherwise you need to scuff the primer up. You can "smooth up" your welding with the All-metal on bare metal and then prime. After that you may find you need to fine tune the initial filler work with some body putty over the primer. Finishing an area after welding to prep for painting is a whole other set of tools and know-how. You may need to get into learning how to use a guide coat, sanding blocks, etc.

When butt welding a seam, you start by doing weld dots about an inch apart and planish them as you go along. If the weld dot is too high, you need to grind/sand them down a bit. Then you go back and do more weld dots in between the first round of weld dots. When you get to the point of filling in the seam between the dots, you overlap weld dots so you completely fill in theBelow is a photo of modification I did to the rear fenders on my 600 body in order to widen the opening for tire clearance. I held the pieces together with butt clamps and took my time doing the welding.

If you aren't planning on doing a large restoration project now or in the future and just have the one area to deal with, you might consider just preparing the car and fitting up the replacement panel and then hiring someone to do the welding then take it over from there. If you could get it tig welded, all the better. I have a partial new rear quarter panel to weld up on my Abarth 1300/124 project and may do just that. There is part of the panel that I can't behind to hold a dolly for planishing and can't risk the welding turning out badly.

If you do decide to do your own welding, do lots and lots of practicing on scrap pieces of thin sheet (22 ga. and thinner) until you've got the hang of it. BTW, mig welding on thicker sheet metal like 12-16 gauge is MUCH easier and when you get into 1/8" and thicker, any monkey can do it... Don't forget to post some photos on how it turns out.

For some excellent how-to photos and advice, look up forum member "tonybmw" on the retrorides.com forum in England. Best info. I've found on the internet and he uses some pretty ordinary and low cost tools. He has one particular long thread that is fantastic (work on a BMW).

kak_varit_tonkij_metall.jpg
View attachment 19087 View attachment 19088 View attachment 19089
Jeff, If I understand correctly, you are asking if you should use non-gas flux-core MIG wire, or gas-shielded non-flux-core MIG wire? If I got that right, gas shielding is much cleaner - especially for thin sheet metal. A smaller gauge wire and low heat setting will help prevent warpage and blow-through. And you really don't need to flange and spot weld it. Just butt weld the edges flush together. There are lots of YouTube videos on how to do it if you like to see examples.
Otherwise, if I got your question wrong please ask again.
Jeff, If I understand correctly, you are asking if you should use non-gas flux-core MIG wire, or gas-shielded non-flux-core MIG wire? If I got that right, gas shielding is much cleaner - especially for thin sheet metal. A smaller gauge wire and low heat setting will help prevent warpage and blow-through. And you really don't need to flange and spot weld it. Just butt weld the edges flush together. There are lots of YouTube videos on how to do it if you like to see examples.
Otherwise, if I got your question wrong please ask again.
Hey Jeff
Yes I am talking about non-gas flux core,I have been warned about warping so I am planning on doing some practise runs on scrap metal

Thx for your comments and advice

Jeff
 
Few more things. The "stickout" on the gun is very important and should be close to 1/8". Gas flow needs to be correct but once adjusted, don't need to change it. Keep the nozzle and tip clean at all times. There is a good little tool for cleaning the nozzle. Keep the wire trimmed and not too long. If it's bent, has a blob of melted metal on the end or is dirty, stop and trim it. Use a heavy gauge extension cord and keep it short as possible and make sure the wiring from receptacle to your house/shop panel isn't too long.

On your Lincoln 140 welder, that is a great choice for sheet metal. Mine is a Miller 135 amp. You want 0.023" wire. There is a type of wire called "Easy Grind" but I tried it and didn't find any difference. Do NOT buy cheap mig wire at places like Princess Auto as the alloy can be unsuitable and the copper coating may not be good either. Go to a shop that specializes in gas and welding supplies like Air Liquide and get your wire there. I can't recall the exact wire specs but I use "ordinary" mig wire and a welding shop will sell you the right stuff.

On eye protection, I totally love my Servore auto-darkening welding mask (see below). Always make sure your skin is completely covered because the UV rays from mig welding are intense and can cause 2nd and 3rd degree skin burns and even skin cancer from long-term exposure. Get a bad skin burn and you definitely won't let that happen again...

There's some good websites and forums with good info. and help on welding and working with sheet metal like weldingtipsand tricks.com, autobody101.com, garagejournal.com, hotrodders.com, weldingweb.com for example. I highly recommend spending some time at these places and learning what you can. FWIW, here's a good how NOT to mig weld thin sheet metal video:
Don't let that guy near your Fiat... :mad:

Mig welding is fun, fun, fun! When you realize what you can do with a mig welder, you suddenly might want to make all sorts of things like workbench, tool cart, equipment stands and much, much more!!

Full20pic-600x600.jpg
Hey Gil
Just read your posts and I can’t thank you enough for all your comments. I will try to do the work myself since it has been a 30 year project of mine to get this car back on the road myself. You asked me in the previous quote how I was going to support the two pieces of metal together. The area that I am working on is the rear quarter panel where the bottom six inches is rust. I will need to cut it out and then I would flange and screw (metal screws ) to hold the pieces into place ready to be welded. After welding I would grind down or unscrew the screws. After reading your posts posts you recommend to not flange. How would you hold the pieces into place to butt weld. Can I get clamps to extend over 6 - 8 inches?. Let me know

Thx Jeff
 
If you don't use a shielding gas, I believe you will have an issue with immediate oxidation on & around the welds. I use a cheap MIG (flux core) for welding heavier gauge steel (angle iron, etc) when I'm cobbling stuff up. I would never use it on something as delicate as auto sheet metal. I think you will have a steep learning curve to overcome the limitations of the equipment. As long as you practise on the same (thin) gauge steel scraps & practise butt-welds, I would expect you will be able to overcome them, just more work than shielded gas MIG or TIG
 
Karl has shown what the butt clamps look like. ^^^ When butt welding, these clamps are great because they hold the metal pieces rigidly and evenly in place as well as giving the required gap width for mig welding. When there's no way you can have access behind a panel, you can use a welding magnet like below. There are different sizes & shapes available. The small ones don't have much holding power though. Magnets and butt clamps are available all over, at HF & Princess Auto & KMS Tools and of course, on ebay and are inexpensive.

Getting the gap right for butt welding sheet with a mig welder is very, very important. It allows enough penetration and reduces the chances of a blow-through (from too much heat). If your gap is inconsistent as you move along, the heat and speed setting on your machine can't adjust itself and a weld dot can end up too hot or too cold. If tig welding, you'd want a smaller gap or no gap at all as well as being a tight gap everywhere (harder to do too). Use a welder's wire brush to clean off welds as you go. You may find anti-spatter spray will help if you get molten spatter sticking to surfaces as you weld.

When mig welding, the length of time you hold the trigger is also very, very important when working with thin sheet metal. You need to be able to clearly see your welds as you go so you want a good auto-darkening hood or helmet and have it adjusted correctly. I like the welding mask because I can get my eyes closer to the welding for a better view of what's happening. You want to make sure your hand holding the gun is steady and won't move (if doing a weld dot). Timing is everything and it happens in a split second. Learning what that split second needs to be takes lotsa practice. Resist moving the gun away from a weld until you've released the trigger because if you don't, you can end up with a rat's tail and defective weld dot. Trigger duration and mig welder settings can take a while to learn to get right. Gauge thickness, welding close to other nearby metal, etc. will affect the welds because you need more heat. Sometimes you can just hold the trigger a little longer. When you have everything figured out, when you have the arc going, you should hear what they call the "sizzling bacon" sound and it's quite distinctive. If it pops and sputters, something is wrong.

Just came across the photo below this morning (from Eastwood) that shows a large area with new sheet metal being welded in. Note all the butt clamps, the consistent gap everywhere and the spacing of the initial weld dots. Another photo I also came across this morning (courtesy Napa) is a round patch welded in on a door. Yikes, that is some gawd awful welding and it doesn't get much worse than that. I would be embarrassed to post a photo like that for the public to see, yet it's from a major auto parts corp! If you do happen to end up with some craters in your welds like that, you want the metal to be 100% clean before putting filler or primer on it. If it's dirty, you're asking for a failure in the finish down the road. I have a handheld spot blaster that I use for cleaning welds and use coal slag media. It's a bit messy indoors but some sheet plastic can help contain it.

I can't emphasize enough that you want to be butt welding the sheet metal. Besides the potential for causing premature rusting. overlapping sheet metal also makes the patches protrude outwards more from the body, forcing you to use more filler. Can also affect the original/correct contour of body panels. FWIW, if you do get some shrinkage in your weld seams like in the sample piece in the above photo I posted, the weld seam gets pulled inward slightly, not outwards. This can potentially help with reducing the buildup of filler. Once you try out the butt clamp method, I think you'll find it isn't really hard to do. BTW, the sheet metal you want is 22 ga. for exterior body panels and should be the plain non-coated type.

Vise grips also work well except have a limited reach (depending on which size and type). You also use C-clamps and even woodworking clamps sometimes.

A tool that is really handy to have is a 6" machinist's rule as in photo. They are something like 1/16" thick and rigid. Excellent for checking evenness of adjoining pieces before you do a weld dot. I have one that my dad used when he was a machinist in the navy in WWII. Don't have many of his tools, but the 6" rule is one I use a LOT. Also handy is a 12" flexible steel ruler.

I don't know what you are doing looks like, but another challenge you may encounter is mig welding a seam right to the edge of sheet metal or welding up a hole. What you need is to use a piece of copper as backup. There are pieces of copper on a handle available at welding supply places or you can use some scrap copper pipe and flatten it. Clamp the copper in place and weld. Not that the extra metal (the copper) will mean you may need a bit more heat. If the copper is dirty, it can cause a bad weld.

See? I think I said I could go on for pages...

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Another photo I also came across this morning (courtesy Napa) is a round patch welded in on a door. Yikes, that is some gawd awful welding and it doesn't get much worse than that. I would be embarrassed to post a photo like that for the public to see,
Well, so am I, which is why I'm not posting a photo :oops:
But when my welds come out looking like that, what am I doing wrong?
 
Hi,
I would not use flux core wire on exterior bodywork. I have tried both flux core and normal gas shield wire.
Flux core should only be used on thicker steel and only when a gas supply is not available or convenient i.e. on site work.
In my view the flux core is too thick to weld thin body panels. It's 0.9mm and therefore carries too much current before melting for thin steel, especially near the edges as in butt welds.
I use 0.6mm wire for body panels and 0.8mm for anything else.
Use a gas shield even if it's only the disposable bottle type. If you are only doing a small amount of welding these will be fine but I would recommend getting a larger refillable bottle if this is a major restoration.
I tend to use the magnetic clamps shown above. If I have access to the backside of the weld I try and hold either a brass or copper heat sink behind where I'm welding just while I'm tacking the panels together. Once tacked the heat is able to transfer through the tacks and blowing holes is less of a problem.
Always thoroughly clean the metal on both sides. When cutting out old metal go further in to good metal than you think is ok. The metal near the rust is probably thinner than you think.
About 7 years ago I did an evening class a the local University that was a real eye opener. When you get instruction from someone who knows what they're doing you soon see where you're going wrong. Ask around locally there may be a course you could do. It really helps.

Andy
 
Well, so am I, which is why I'm not posting a photo :oops:
But when my welds come out looking like that, what am I doing wrong?
What's in that photo could be from a number of factors or combination of them. Gun not held steady and arc moving slightly and in a random direction. Contaminated metal (even backside of the base metal should be cleaned by using some emery cloth). Dirty nozzle, incorrect stickout, not enough gas flow. Use of inappropriate solvent to clean surfaces (brake cleaner for ex. shouldn't be used). The patch piece could be too much thicker than the door's original metal. Not enough penetration (looks as if the welds on the patch piece are just sitting on top). Improper coverage - the welds when ground/sanded down should look like continuous and even metal without defects. Occasionally can be a bad bottle of gas but I think that's pretty uncommon. There is porosity in those welds which might be from inadequate shielding of the welds such as from holding the gun too far away. This website has a list of 22 possible causes of porosity. https://www.thefabricator.com/article/arcwelding/22-possible-causes-of-weld-metal-porosity Weldingtipsandtricks.com is a good website for info.

Sometimes the wire itself can be the cause which is why it's not a good idea to buy cheap stuff. It can have a shelf life and should be stored within a certain temp. and humidity range.

It looks like the patch piece isn't butt welded and is in behind the door's sheet metal and thus overlapping. The double layer of metal in that case requires more heat to get proper penetration. But you have to be careful because if you increase the heat and/or hold the trigger longer, if you move the arc out onto the single layer of metal you can blow a hole through it in no time. The technique is to start the arc on top of a single layer for a very brief moment and then move the arc onto the double-layered part once the metal has started to heat up and the weld puddle has started okay. Similar to doing a plug-weld where you start the arc in the center of the hole then quickly swirl around in a circle around the perimeter where the two layers of metal are.

It's def. a delicate balance between getting enough heat and penetration and too little heat and poor penetration. Blowing a hole through the metal is a bit of a PITA to go back and fix and I would say the tendency is for many people is to use too little heat because they're afraid of blow-throughs. Sometimes it's like when the planets are all aligned and it's a full moon, your welds are like WOW. But sometimes something can be off and not immediately obvious why and your welds are like cr@p. Occasionally I can be welding away and everything is great and then suddenly run into a spot where the welds just won't go down nicely at all. Sometimes the old original metal can be "bad" and sometimes you need to tweak your settings and trigger time. Sometimes I can adjust the voltage ever so slightly and it makes a big difference in the weld quality.

When all else fails, maybe it's just operator error... :D
 
What's in that photo could be from a number of factors or combination of them. Gun not held steady and arc moving slightly and in a random direction. Contaminated metal (even backside of the base metal should be cleaned by using some emery cloth). Dirty nozzle, incorrect stickout, not enough gas flow. Use of inappropriate solvent to clean surfaces (brake cleaner for ex. shouldn't be used). The patch piece could be too much thicker than the door's original metal. Not enough penetration (looks as if the welds on the patch piece are just sitting on top). Improper coverage - the welds when ground/sanded down should look like continuous and even metal without defects. Occasionally can be a bad bottle of gas but I think that's pretty uncommon. There is porosity in those welds which might be from inadequate shielding of the welds such as from holding the gun too far away. This website has a list of 22 possible causes of porosity. https://www.thefabricator.com/article/arcwelding/22-possible-causes-of-weld-metal-porosity Weldingtipsandtricks.com is a good website for info.

Sometimes the wire itself can be the cause which is why it's not a good idea to buy cheap stuff. It can have a shelf life and should be stored within a certain temp. and humidity range.

It looks like the patch piece isn't butt welded and is in behind the door's sheet metal and thus overlapping. The double layer of metal in that case requires more heat to get proper penetration. But you have to be careful because if you increase the heat and/or hold the trigger longer, if you move the arc out onto the single layer of metal you can blow a hole through it in no time. The technique is to start the arc on top of a single layer for a very brief moment and then move the arc onto the double-layered part once the metal has started to heat up and the weld puddle has started okay. Similar to doing a plug-weld where you start the arc in the center of the hole then quickly swirl around in a circle around the perimeter where the two layers of metal are.

It's def. a delicate balance between getting enough heat and penetration and too little heat and poor penetration. Blowing a hole through the metal is a bit of a PITA to go back and fix and I would say the tendency is for many people is to use too little heat because they're afraid of blow-throughs. Sometimes it's like when the planets are all aligned and it's a full moon, your welds are like WOW. But sometimes something can be off and not immediately obvious why and your welds are like cr@p. Occasionally I can be welding away and everything is great and then suddenly run into a spot where the welds just won't go down nicely at all. Sometimes the old original metal can be "bad" and sometimes you need to tweak your settings and trigger time. Sometimes I can adjust the voltage ever so slightly and it makes a big difference in the weld quality.

When all else fails, maybe it's just operator error... :D
Hey Gil

Lots of great information and advice that I have to digest before I start this repair. I will go slow and use your advice as you have outlined. I will keep you updated on my progress. I won’t be starting this part of the restoration till the beginning of March. This way I can do some practicing on scrap metal before welding on the car.

Thx for your advice

Jeff
 
Hi,
I would not use flux core wire on exterior bodywork. I have tried both flux core and normal gas shield wire.
Flux core should only be used on thicker steel and only when a gas supply is not available or convenient i.e. on site work.
In my view the flux core is too thick to weld thin body panels. It's 0.9mm and therefore carries too much current before melting for thin steel, especially near the edges as in butt welds.
I use 0.6mm wire for body panels and 0.8mm for anything else.
Use a gas shield even if it's only the disposable bottle type. If you are only doing a small amount of welding these will be fine but I would recommend getting a larger refillable bottle if this is a major restoration.
I tend to use the magnetic clamps shown above. If I have access to the backside of the weld I try and hold either a brass or copper heat sink behind where I'm welding just while I'm tacking the panels together. Once tacked the heat is able to transfer through the tacks and blowing holes is less of a problem.
Always thoroughly clean the metal on both sides. When cutting out old metal go further in to good metal than you think is ok. The metal near the rust is probably thinner than you think.
About 7 years ago I did an evening class a the local University that was a real eye opener. When you get instruction from someone who knows what they're doing you soon see where you're going wrong. Ask around locally there may be a course you could do. It really helps.

Andy
Hi Andy

Thx for your advice on the wire size to use and the prep that is needed before a weld. Another great tip is to buy the disposable bottle instead of renting. I will look at both options. I will be starting this project in March so I will be submitting some pics of my progress then

Thx Jeff
 
Regarding the gas bottle (cylinder) rental, here is my view.
I've bought MIG gas from three different welding suppliers/stores; two in SoCal and one in Vegas. And none of them have ever charged me a rental fee or any other charges other than for the gas itself. I guess basically if you get a full bottle of gas from them they let you use the cylinder for free. Then when it comes time to refill it you just pay for the gas again. The price of the gas itself isn't too bad. It is based on the size of the cylinder, volume of gas to fill it. And like most things it gets slightly less expansive with larger quantities (price per unit to fill a larger cylinder is less). And once you feel more comfortable using your welder you will find all sorts of applications for it, so I go through more gas than I would have imagined. Therefore getting a big cylinder is worth the savings in the long run. The small disposable bottles won't get you very far, and are much more expensive for the amount of gas they contain.
 
Thought I would post a few photos of some butt welding I did on the weekend. On my 850 coupe shell, the lower 4" or so at the bottom of the front nose panel is badly rusted and needs to be dealt with. I could find a complete new panel for around $500 plus shipping but that's be such a waste for the small amount of metal I need. It would be a challenging piece to form from flat sheet with the right contour. So I'm using some salvaged donor metal. The piece will be all trimmed to suit once I've got it completely welded up.

The seam to weld is about 36" long and it's the usual THIN Fiat sheet metal I've been having to work with so warpage is a big concern. I spent a lot of time sanding the adjoining edges carefully to get a even gap along the full length. Then I held it together with butt clamps. Because welding a long seam causes the seam to come together at the opposite end of a weld dot, I started the welds in the center of the panel and moved towards the ends. Sometimes you will find the butt clamps get stuck due to the seam pulling together and you need to planish the welds to get the clamp out.

As I welded a couple of dots, I took the piece over to my fancy planishing "machine". Since it isn't attached to the body, it's much easier to planish the welds on the workbench. I just clamped the head of an old handle-less ball peen hammer in the vise and gave each weld a couple of good well-aimed thumps to reverse the shrinkage. If this was on the car, it'd require a hammer and handheld dolly.

As I did each weld dot, I used my 6" rule to check for alignment. If off, I tweak it as needed. Once the initial round of welding was done, I checked for warpage then sanded the weld dots down. If noticeably warped, you need to sand the weld partially down and then try sanding it some more, or sometime planish the weld again to stretch the seam apart and raise the panel ever so slightly around that weld. Sometimes you'll find that the adjoining pieces aren't exactly aligned after sanding, as you can see in the photo with sanded welds on the weld in the center. It could use a little more sanding but you MUST be very careful not to thin out the base metal. I'll check for alignment again with my rule and then use a low crown hammer and dolly to flatten the seam out before the next round of welds.

Next thing I'll be doing is putting another weld dot between the initial ones and planishing and sanding again. If the metal wasn't so thin, I'd just start doing new weld dots next to each other until the gaps between the initial ones are all filled in. When doing another weld dot next to ones you've done, you want the next welds to overlap by about 1/2 otherwise you will get pinholes and craters and a poorly welded seam.

Again, it's really, really important to go slowly on thin sheet metal and to let the metal cool down, or speed up the cooling with a damp rag. I like the rag method as it reduces the spread of heat in the panel (and warpage). If you didn't quite bridge the gap in the seam, do NOT immediately attempt to add more weld. Let it cool. If it's too high, stop and sand it down a bit. If you get a tall-ish blob of weld, it acts like a heat sink and you'll need more heat on the weld, which of course will lead to more warpage.

So it's now about 9am and time to head over to the garage for yet another day of rust repair and welding... o_O

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