which handles better?

[bill]

i totally agree

Here is a "Four Sports Car Comparison" from Road & Track back in the day.

Note the 914 tested zero to 60Mph at a tire burning 13.9 seconds and the road test staff used the words, "Futuristic but Un-resolved."

To this day, the 914 is mostly shunned by Porsche-philes and considered more VW than Porsche. In a way similar to the Ferrari Dino being, "Not a Real Ferrari." until recently.

What made the difference for the 914 being more accepted by car folks than the 1/9 is the fact Porsche did race the car with some success and evolved it to some degree. Initially increasing the engine displacement from 1.7L to 2.0L, then the 914-6 and finally the 916.. plus the name Porsche has a halo effect on this car.

The X had none of this, it suffered lack of proper development from day one and FIAT was determined to not allow the x1/9 to be a fully developed race car. Fact is, the x1/9 was never really a FIAT design, it was something that Mr. Bertone cooked up and convinced Agnelli to produce it initially and use FIAT mechanicals..

Cars develop a reputation of desirability factor based on it's racing history, how many times did "it win", owner experience, how the media presents the car to the public and brand reputation.

It's worth noting that when Bertone went direct to the US market, they tried to hide every FIAT badge to avoid being connected to the FIAT name which was perceived as bad in the US car market.

If one were to judge the x1/9 purely on it's stock offering, yes it is a rather low performance offering that has good chassis dynamics and under powered.. But, the vast majority would never know what this design is capable of due to how un-developed it is as delivered and no real factory supported race efforts. In the 914's case, there are direct go-fast options for this car including V8 Detroit power, pride of owing a "Porsche" and good aftermarket support and owners who do not whine about spending $ on their Porsche. The x1/9 comes with none of these.. relegating it to being a under appreciated, un-finished gem for some to discover.

For those who have not seen this video.. This is basically an x1/9 chassis with Uno turbo power racing with Porsche's current GT-3 cup racer and a mid-engine Renault Megan..
YouTube - Special Saloon Car Challenge- Jyllandsringen 23 August 2009. Heat 2. pt.1

YouTube - Special Saloon Car Challenge- Jyllandsringen 23 August 2009. Heat 2. pt.2

http://xwebforums.com/forum/index.php?threads/4612/

Imagine if FIAT allowed Bertone to produce the twin cam Stradle and Abarth to rally it and do a proper race program using the x1/9 chassis.. beyond what Dallara did with this chassis.

If looking at value for the money spent were a prime consideration, the x remains one of the very best values in a small mid-engine sports car.

As for rust, 914 rust as bad or worst than the x1/9, but the most serious rust problems are hidden. There are reinforcement structures that run along the side of the body and they tend to rust badly in darkness. The clue to this problem, the doors sag and won't close properly on a 914. Just another example of how many cars from that era are all prone to rust.

Bernice

The x1/9 was a very well planned car just by looking through them you can tell that the car never recieved a "fair shake" but as far as the body rust, the cars needed to be dipped not just paint would of reduced rust a bunch, but then some other companies did not dip either back then. also the x1/9 has hidden panels as well but the car needed that uno turbo engine right off the bat. that body shell in good shape can take some power for the size

 

[ryan]

I don't know, isn't that a bit of conjecture regarding Bertone and the Fiat name? I know that they replaced the Fiat trunk/hood badges with their own, and there was the cover over the intake manifold, but that seems very typical. My gut feeling is it was just a basic rebadging exercise, rather than a "hide the Fiat name at all costs" panic.

There is very good reason for not calling the 914 a real Porsche and a VW instead. The 914 was the proper successor to the VW Karmann Ghia. I believe the 4-cylinder (914/4) was actually sold as a VW or a VW-Porsche (with no Porsche emblems on the car) in Germany and most other markets; the 6-cylinder (914/6) was sold as a Porsche with proper badging. The US market just happened to receive them both badged as Porsches.

Here is the rear clip of the VW-Porsche 914/4.

Actually, here is even a 914/6 with the VW-Porsche badging. :hmm:

 

[Jim W]

I don't know, isn't that a bit of conjecture regarding Bertone and the Fiat name? I know that they replaced the Fiat trunk/hood badges with their own, and there was the cover over the intake manifold, but that seems very typical. My gut feeling is it was just a basic rebadging exercise, rather than a "hide the Fiat name at all costs" panic.

No conjecture... Fiat left the US market in '82 with a miserable reputation for reliability and dealer service (some of it deserved, some not). So as a result, Bertone, but more specifically IAI (Malcolm Bricklin's importation company) did their best to hide any reference to Fiat when they started bringing the X1/9 into the US directly... ever wonder why that metal plate bolted onto the intake plenum on Bertones is there?... It hides the "Fiat" name that's cast into the part.

To quote a contemporary article (R&T '85) written about IAI's efforts to import the Fiat 124 (renamed the Pininfarina Azzurra) and the X1/9:

"IAI must deal with the fact that the public sees the original manufacturer Fiat as having scurried off, tail between its legs, leaving the name in disrepute"

IAI also tried to bring the car upmarket by making convenience features as standard... Unfortunately, this brought the price to the silly point for what was then a 10+ year old design. The buying public acted accordingly and stayed away in droves.

 

[Jim W]

It is one of the factors that convinced me to buy a 1972 FIAT Spider back in 1978.

I keep a copy of that article in my files as well... however, even after reading it I still couldn't decide, so I bought - and still own - 3 examples of the 4 ... MGB, TR6 and Fiat Spider.

For my mid-engined ride I picked the X...

...and as an owner, I find the article spot on in contrasting the character of the choices and I would highly recommend it to anyone looking for a sports car from that era.

Slightly depressing to think that it has now been 40+ years since it was originally printed...

 

[Cevan]

Couple of comments:

The 914 came about b/c both VW and Porsche needed new models. Porsche needed a replacement for the 912.

Regarding the statement that the X1/9 will out handle the 914 at speeds below 70, please provide data to back this claim.

Now the 914 did have a bigger gas tank (12.2 vs 16.4), better weight distribution, more power, less weight, more leg room, more trunk space, better brakes, and the 0-60 time for the 2 liter would have bested the other cars in the Road and Track test. The X1/9 wins hands down for a stiffer chassis and better seats.

 

[Rupunzell]

If one s interested in making a chassis function properly, chassis stiffness is key. Or, one of the very basic foundation items that is not easy to correct when performance is increased and can be the most limiting factor for increasing the performance of any car.

Bernice

The X1/9 wins hands down for a stiffer chassis and better seats.

 

[Rupunzell]

VW_Porsche

They have been "married" since day one, but it has NOT been a happy marriage.

VW bug resulted in the Porsche 356 & Karmann Ghia. Due to the Porsche halo effect, the 356 can have a market value in 6 figures... for basically a VW bug derived Sports car.

The next VB bug related sports car... 914, 914-6 and the rare 916.

Porsche built and continued development of the legendary 911...

Then AUDI fell into the Porsche_VW group and resulted in front engine, water cooled Porsche 924, 944, 928, 968.. and production of the rear engine 911 series basically stopped. This was not a good time for VW or Porsche.. due to a host of reasons.

Porsche came to their senses and re-introduced the rear engine 911..

Which brings us to the recent ownership war between VW and Porsche.. Remember when Porsche was going to purchase VW.. Well, that deal failed and Porsche is now owned by VW... How things change yet remain the same.

See, Porsche needs VW to survive as there are many things involved with car production that Porsche cannot do on it's own. This is why Porsche wanted to own VW and have their way with using VW bits.
This is the hard reality of modern car production today. It takes a HUGE amount of resources and volume to produce a modern car. The romantic days of old car production are mostly gone (with some exceptions).

What I'm looking forward to is VW's Blue Sport mid-engine car. If they get this proper, it has the potential to be a classic.

What Porsche has is a brand name and status that is ingrained into the car public's mind as a race winning brand. This perception is what allows Porsche to command the prices they do, regardless of the actual content.

Basically this has been a discussion of what VW -vs- Porsche badges mean relative to the actual car and it's contents. Or, marketing 101.

Bernice

 

[ryan]

No conjecture... Fiat left the US market in '82 with a miserable reputation for reliability and dealer service (some of it deserved, some not). So as a result, Bertone, but more specifically IAI (Malcolm Bricklin's importation company) did their best to hide any reference to Fiat when they started bringing the X1/9 into the US directly... ever wonder why that metal plate bolted onto the intake plenum on Bertones is there?... It hides the "Fiat" name that's cast into the part.

Ok, but I still consider it conjecture (i.e., guessing) unless there is a specific reference from someone at Bertone SpA stating that they made this desperate dash to cover up any reference to Fiat.

Yes, I'm very aware of why that metal plate is there, I have an '87. What I'm saying though is that placing Bertone badges on the hood and trunk, along with a metal plate to cover up the FIAT name on the engine makes perfect sense when rebranding the car. It is the bare minimum that needed to be done. Those are three of the four or five places where people expect to see a brand's marque.

I can certainly understand why folks would read a lot into the intake cover-up (oh my gosh, did you see what they did!?), but I think it is just that -- reading a bit too much into it. The fact of the matter is, unlike other places on the car, the re-branding of the engine (or de-branding rather) was done in a bit of a goofy way, but I don't think it necessarily signifies panic. That said, again, I can understand why people would read into just that item alone as being a desperate attempt to cut connection with Fiat. I see it more as a necessary job that was done on the cheap.

 

[ryan]

Yup, the history of VW and Porsche is very well known.

The topic though was how the 914 was a unique case where the model was explicitly branded as a VW-Porsche; so the Porsche folks do have a point when saying it wasn't a real Porsche. Nevertheless, it is a nice car, so whatever -- but placing the VW logo on the 914 in its home market was no minor detail.

 

[Rupunzell]

The 914 was ahead of it's time, just like the Lotus Europa and X1/9. These three trend setters pointed to what the future of sports cars could have been, but for a host of reasons, including market inertia and buyer expectation of the engine should be at the front.. Conspired to make the mid-engine layout still "exotic" to this day.

Reason for all the VW_Porsche babble is to point out company image and market perception plays a big part in how many car folks perceive a given car.

I'm still of the opinion that a mid-engine layout car for the masses is more of a liability rather than an advantage due to it's innate chassis dynamics at or just over the limit of adhesion.

As for which car handles better.. That remains a very complex question where even altering tire pressures will make a difference and this does not even begin to take into account driver preferences.

What I will say, the X does have a stiffer chassis and better rear suspension geometry than the 914 and it goes on from there...

BTW, the north-south mid-engine layout of the 914 is perfered in serious rally cars due to the gyroscopic effect of the engine flywheel & crank.. ala what keeps a bicycle upright and not wanting to turn left or right..

Bernice

so the Porsche folks do have a point when saying it wasn't a real Porsche. Nevertheless, it is a nice car, so whatever -- but placing the VW logo on the 914 in its home market was no minor detail.

 

[Rupunzell]

One needs to be a FIAT owner back in the day to really appreciate what the anti-FIAT climate was like in the US car market.

Being a long time FIAT owner, my personal experience with being a FIAT owner was not good or pleasant as many common folks would heckel, sneer and strongly advise to get rid of that rusty, un-reliable death trap.

Do you remember when violence broke out in Detroit factory parking lots where an employee drove a non-Detroit car to work and parked it there?

Bernice

Ok, but I still consider it conjecture (i.e., guessing) unless there is a specific reference from someone at Bertone SpA stating that they made this desperate dash to cover up any reference to Fiat.

 

[bbrown]

I remember that! ...

Do you remember when violence broke out in Detroit factory parking lots where an employee drove a non-Detroit car to work and parked it there? Bernice

I also remember the amount of money it took to keep my 1974 X1/9 on the road too...
Before I let it go, I had accrued over $3K in repair bills in less than 3 years.
I sure do wish I knew then what I know now about our cars.

Had all the usual problems too... Wheel bearings, coolant failure, heater valve, clutch slave failure, sticky brakes, worn clutch, RUST, etc.

But no electrical gremlins! :grin:

 

[bb4re]

I lived in Detroit...

...in the mid 1980's...there were some problems at the factories, but nothing like the media portrayed. Back then, you were risking your vehicles' health if you drove a Jeep product to your job at a GM factory, just as much as if you drove a Toyota.
In Toledo, they had special parking in the outskirts of the parking lot for you if you drove ANY non-AMC/JEEP vehicle to work (the Jeep plant). I know people who were chastised for taking their Corvette to work there.
A lot of the attitude towards the foreign cars was promoted by the union thugs.