X motor in an 850 Spider?

[DSpieg]

While driving my 850 yesterday, pedaling as hard as I could (a la Fred
Flintstone) to keep up with traffic, I had this fantasy thought about what it would take to drop an X1/9 powertrain into an 850 Spider.

Here's the concept:

Remove the rear 'seat' (parcel shelf), and stow the folding top "above ground" as on most cars rather than underneath the hinged cover door in the parcel shelf area.

Relocate the fuel tank from the bulkhead between engine and passenger compartments, to the front trunk.

Drop in a complete X1/9 engine/clutch/transaxle unit (I'll bet Carl F. could do this job in about 6 or 7 hours). I suppose strut towers would have to be welded into the inner fenders to support the MacPherson (Chapman?) struts.

Make a small rear trunk (a la X1/9) in the empty space behind the engine.

Is this feasible? Been done before?

Dave Spiegelthal
Centreville, VA
'71 Fiat 850 Spider (seriously underpowered)
'77 Fiat X1/9 ("right-powered")
'77 Lancia Beta HPE (adequately powered)

 

[eflexter]

MY FIRST CAR

was an 850 Spider. The deck is low on those. An overhead cam probably would be too tall.

Maybe you should convert to a nice 3 cylinder Kubota diesel? Go for 100mpg. Seems like it would fit to the transmission pretty easy.

Or even a motorcycle engine! THAT would be slick!

Or flip the tranny upside down and put the engine in the front. That's getting crazy....

 

[Black-Tooth]

Dave... I have actually seen a Caddy Eldo...

... FWD engine and drivetrain welded up into the rear of an X1/9.

(It went VERY fast straight forward... but would not stop or turn!)

So anything CAN be done... But as Eddie said... not a very easy transition.

 

[Pete Whitstone]

Wasn't there a pic a few weeks ago...

Is this feasible? Been done before?

that was floating around, of an 850 with an X engine mounted to the original 850 transaxle? In this configuration, the X engine was longitudinal, not transverse. Looked like it BARELY fit.

Pete

 

[JimD]

I thought it was a 1608 twinc

that was floating around, of an 850 with an X engine mounted to the original 850 transaxle? In this configuration, the X engine was longitudinal, not transverse. Looked like it BARELY fit.

Pete

Wasn't it a twin cam from an old Spider? I can't find it though. I was better at the old Xweb 1.0 search.

 

[bbrown]

You talking about this one?

I also have one out of Oregon (looking still) that was mounted in the rear of a blue car. (Wayne) Mac knows him.

 

[EricH]

Or use a 128 drivetrain

Or flip the tranny upside down and put the engine in the front. That's getting crazy....

Or use a 128 drivetrain.

No, that's not a serious suggestion... Just pointing out that if you want a Fiat SOHC in front, it's the 128 not the X1/9 that you'd start with.

 

[Pete Whitstone]

I'm confused, how did we get on the topic of a FWD?

Or use a 128 drivetrain.

No, that's not a serious suggestion... Just pointing out that if you want a Fiat SOHC in front, it's the 128 not the X1/9 that you'd start with.

The original poster states:

"Relocate the fuel tank from the bulkhead between engine and passenger compartments, to the front trunk."

"Drop in a complete X1/9 engine/clutch/transaxle unit (I'll bet Carl F. could do this job in about 6 or 7 hours). I suppose strut towers would have to be welded into the inner fenders to support the MacPherson (Chapman?) struts."

"Make a small rear trunk (a la X1/9) in the empty space behind the engine."

Sounds like a rear engine, rear wheel drive car to me...

Pete

 

[Black-Tooth]

Now this is really getting confusing...

This foto is a RWD with a front mounted V8... I also believe the body was set on an altered Chevy chassis...

Here's a totally different animal... X1/9 body on what I believe to be a Chevrolet 4X4 S10 chassis.

Wayne Wright's is still techincally a MID engine V6 using a FWD unit out of an Olds Toronado (split trans and torque converter, chain coupled) with a FLIPPED Final Drive unit...

Closing the decklid on Wayne's... ya almost can't tell. What contantly goes through my mind though... is the Vegetable Drink slogan... that he "Coulda had a V-8..." quite easily too. Wayne states this iron block engine and configuration added only 300 pounds to the car as it sits, with most of the weight on or in front of the rear axle. A gas tank and radiator up front help also... Imagine an all aluminum LS7 Vette engine in this bay at 505 hp! HA!

 

[bb4re]

One of our customers...

...mailed us some pics of his early X...with an Olds 455 in the rear. If I can get his permission to scan and post them, I will.

 

[kmead]

Due to the rotation direction of a 128/X motor you would need to change the transmission to a 600 transmission as there are (to the best of my knowledge) no reverse rotation cams available for that motor family.

If you want to take it into mid engine territory you likely would need to lengthen the wheelbase. Jay has a Wankel engined 850 that is mid engined and it is clearly a tight fit. A sidewinder mid engine (ala the X) might be a bit better but there is just not a lot of room in an 850.

Love to see someone try (on a otherwise basket case 850).

 

[etownsley]

A better canidate would be the 850 Coupe

The shell is stronger because of the hard top. It has a real back seat instead of just a parcel shelf.

That extra room would provide more area for the X's engine, tanny and suspension, Plus you could fab up a firewall and engine shroud that would protect your ears. The sloped back glass would provode an excellent way to view the engine from the outside of the car.

Maintenance would have to be done via singing down the engine or removing the rear passenger windows.

 

[kmead]

Indeed from a space perspective the coupe would be better.

Unfortunately there are hens teeth and then there are 850 coupes.

There is a 1970 coupe on Craigs list and there is also one on Mira for sale as well. There was one on eBay last week as well. (its rare to see any but so it goes)

The real issue with doing a sidewinder engine in an 850 is width. An 850 is much narrower than an X or nearly any front wheel drive car besides a first generation Civic or 600 sedan...

 

[jjay911]

As a few of you know I have a Rotary Powered 850. The Rotary engine sits mid engined with the firewall moved all the way forward to the back of the seat. With a Porsche 914 transmission. Now Dont pay attention to any of that. Pay attention to the custom framing under the car and the X/19 Shocks and springs. That is what is genius about my car. See If your going to drop the x/19 engine in then do it with the existing transmission of the 850 and just replace the 850 engine. If your going to do it Transverse with the X tranny then you may need to rethink engineering the entire rear of the car like mine...

 

[spiggs]

An X1/9 engine will fit in the stock engine bay but you'll need to use a different transmission than the 850 since the 850 engine rotates the opposite direction. This was at one time a project of mine. I had it all mocked up with a Porsche 901 transmission, adapter, and 1300 sohc. The engine will fit under the stock bodywork if you angle it over like in the X1/9. I lost interest before the project was done because I was bit by the autocross bug and wanted to build something more competitive.

 

[Ulix]

Please do

...I have an early X and and a '67 Olds 98...

 

[jjay911]

Here is a Photo of Merkels Car.. I think it has a 1608cc 124 engine in it..

 

[kmead]

I believe its a 1438 which is a bit shorter in overall height than a 128/138 motor being a hemi with a different stack up of valve hardware.

He has reverse rotation cams in it which I have never heard of any being available for the 128/138 series (but then who has heard or seen every possible part coming out of Italy and all the various other countries producing Fiat/Seat bits).

Personally, if I can fit a twin cam in there I would rather have one of those as they don't weigh much more than a 128 engine and are a bit nicer motor overall.

Nice car isn't it, I have wanted it since I first laid eyes on it in 1989. Merkel has always been hot and cold about the car as it (the twin cam) really changed the way the 850 feels and goes down the road. A 1050 seems to be his personal preference for an 850.