124 Pricing

CandBMotorworks

CandBMotorworks

C&BMotorworks
Consignments: 124 AC Coupe and Spider Turbo

I am going to be looking at a couple of 124s to help the owner's family sell them.

One is a 69 124 Coupe, and the other is an 82 Spider. The latter may be a turbo spider.

I expect both will be projects. I wanted to get an idea of the price range for these. I'm not asking for a specific price for these particular cars; just an idea of the typical range for their model year.

Also, let me know if there are any specific things I ahould be looking for in evaluating these cars.

Thanks.
 
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Both Arizona cars? Should be a minimum of rust. Most 124 turbos were converted back to 'normal' cars. The turbo components are quite rare if you want to keep it original. The 1969 Coupe may or may not have a 5 speed. The early torque tube versions are very rare. Trim pieces are hard enough on the later ones, forget the early ones. The A models survive in the fewest numbers. Luckily, it shares most mechanicals with the Spider. Just do the basics. Accident repair, rust, owner abuse, hack repairs, etc.
 
Spider

This afternoon I made the 40 min trip to look at the Spider. The owner's daughter couldn't tell me much about the car.

Anyway, it is a fairly clean car. It has some rust but it didn't look horrible. With a weekend of work it could be a decent driver condition car.

It had a turbo gauge in the dash and a sticker on the bulkhead that suggest this may have been a turbo car, but no turbo on it. It had the FI.

I'll post some pics later after I get them uploaded off my phone.

I haven't looked at the 69 coupe yet...it's even further away. It supposedly had a turbo on it; perhaps the turbo goodies were transfered.

Hagerty suggests the 81-82 turbo spider is rare and worth some $. But unless the turbo stuff is still around and functioning, it's just a typical Spider 2000. I'm guestimating this car as it sits is worth $2,500-3,000 if you can get it running. With the turbo kit it might be worth double that because of the rarity. Am I in the ballpark?

BTW, this is a good samaritan project for me. The owner has health issues and I'm trying to help them get the cars sold.
 
Photos of 1982 Spider 2000 Turbo

Here is a link to my photobucket account for a bunch of photos I took of the car yesterday. Since going out to see the car the owner's daughter found the ignition key, the turbo and some other parts, the rear seat lower cushion, and a hard top. She still cannot find the door/trunk key, and the battery is flat.

The car has visible rust in two areas -- the passenger side lower door (which appears to have been primered in an effort to fix the problem, but rust is bubbling through the primer), and around the seam between the rear bulkhead and left rear fender. Otherwise, I didn't see any rust anywhere. The paint is pretty faded and has plenty of blemishes. The bonnet has tons of rock chips and around the back edge (where the release is) there is about a foot long area that is a couple inches wide where the paint has been stripped away. The photos should show all this (unfortunately I only had my cell phone for a camera and the sunlight was rather harsh, so it was difficult to get detailed photos).

I would hate to repaint the car because to do so would require removing the original striping and logos which I imagine are made of unobtanium. Especially interesting were the arrows in a circle logo on the front quarter panels. I couldn't figure out what those were supposed to be for, but later realised that they must represent the turbo. I didn't see any other turbo badging on the car, but it does have the turbo gauge in the dash and the Legend motors sticker on the front bulkhead under the bonnet.

The interior is generally in good shape, though it could probably use carpet for the floor. The center console had a couple of holes where blanking plates should be. I found one blanking plate on the passenger floor and attempted to put it back in but it wasn't a tight fit and would not stay without some other support.

The top didn't appear to have any holes and looked faded, but that could just be a layer of dust. The rear window was fairly oxidised and would likely need to be replaced, but it wasn't completely opaque and didn't look cracked or stiff, so with some elbow grease to remove the oxidation with some decent plastic cleaner it might come back and be salvagable.

I'm hoping to go out and look at the other car, perhaps this weekend, and if I can get a chance I'll go back to the house to photograph the remaining parts for the Spider, too.
 
How many 124 guys hang out here?

There doesn't seem to be a lot of activity in this part of the forum. While I love the X (I have two at the moment), I like the 124s, too. More importantly, I need to get info and help on these 124s so I can get them sold. Well, I *think* I want to get them sold. More on that in a moment.

So, my latest update is that I picked up the 124 Coupe yesterday.


I don't know much about it yet, as so far I've only been able to communicate with the owner's adult son, via email. He said he's spent several hundred dollars trying to get it running, though I'm not sure why.

I looked it over last night while it was in my driveway. Judging by the amount of dust on the engine and in the interior, it's been off the road for several years. The tires look pretty good (Sumitomo HRT200s) but I haven't found a date code to verify how old they are.

My god this is a pretty car. If I've seen these in the flesh before it hasn't been for a number of years, because I don't remember. It's prettier in the flesh than in photos. So, I'm supposed to sell this car but I'm to the point where I'd like to buy it myself. I was actually contemplating selling my MINI to raise funds to put into this car. Nevermind that the MINI is my DD and that this car presently doesn't run.

Here's where I need some help -- detective work. This car has a Weber style carburetor that was manufactured under license by a company in Spain. Not sure why -- were any of these built in Spain? I suspect the more likely answer is that someone swapped the carb at some point.

Contrary to what I was told, this car does not have a turbo, nor do I suspect that it ever had one. I'm pretty sure the kids were just confusing this car with the Spider. It has a neat looking header on it and what I would describe as a huge exhaust for for such a tiny motor (isn't this a 1438cc?).

So far I haven't found any evidence of body damage, but I've only conducted a look around in the driveway and some knocking on body panels with my hand. It does have rust, but (so far) I've mostly found (visible) rust around the windshield and around the rear windscreen. The latter is probably the most significant area of rust on the car -- there is one spot where there is perforation rust (the hole is smaller than the tip of my pinky finger -- probably less than 1cm). It also has some very small bubbling in other places, like around the tip of the bottom rear corner of the driver's door. The boot lid and bonnet look good, though the bonnet has one area where the paint has cracked and chipped up -- I don't think that is rust-related. The paint in the engine bay is crazed and cracked throughout. The paint color in the engine bay and under the rear seat cushion matches the exterior, so while it's possible the car has had a repaint at some point it is the original color.

Someone commented that these cars shouldn't have rust because they are Arizona cars. While they have been here for several years, both actually came from Washington State. So it really depends upon where in that state they were -- from what I understand the eastern part of the state is quite dry, while Seattle is quite wet.

I read (in Wikipedia, IIRC) that these cars went to twin headlamps in 1969. This car is supposed to be a 1969 but it is a single headlamp model (which I think is prettier, while the twin lamp setup is sportier). Does anyone have information on model year changes and such? I suspect that this is either an early 1969 car or a car built in 1968 and sold in 1969. Also, is there an online resource against which I can compare the engine and body numbers to verify which motor, etc.?

The interior is used-car o.k. There is some tearing and seam separation in the seat vinyl, mostly in the backs. The carpet looks o.k. The door cards are a bit wavy. The headliner looks good, as do the visors. The dash top is cracked in multiple places and the wood veneer around the shift lever is cracked, separated and curled. The rear deck carpet is torn in places. The interior side of all the windows has this film on them that feels dusty in some places and oily in others. I'm not sure how it would be oily in the interior. Except that when I picked up the car, there was an OPEN can of carb cleaner on the floor, which I supposed could have vaporized in the Arizona heat and settled on the windows. I removed it from the car and capped it and brought it with me, which is good because I'm hoping that some of the parts missing from the carb are there.

Anyway, I pick up the other car on Saturday. I'm leaving town for a week thereafter, then I plan to clean the cars and to head down to meet with the owner (he's in a convalescent home) to get the titles signed and to find out more about the cars' histories.

Thanks for reading the long post (those of you who made is this far). I would appreciate any helpful feedback I can get about these cars as I try to assess them and sell them.

Here is my photobucket album for more pics of the car:

SLIDESHOW
 
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I've had a couple of 124s before, so here is my 2 cents.

Turbo Spider - At this point it's really just a Spider, isn't it? The turbo has been removed, and unless you're sure you have all of the parts to reinstall, it's just another FI Spider 2000 at this point. Honestly, even if you reinstalled the Turbo, it's still just a blip above a normal Spider. That turbo install was pretty much a dog from day one. I would bet most have been removed from cars that received the Legends Turbo treatment. In that car's current condition, I would say $1500. As for preserving the decals, I wouldn't bother. They don't exactly ad to the lines of the car. I hope you don't get the impression I'm badmouthing the car. Just being realistic. I sold an 83 Spider about two years ago, and they just aren't bringing big money unless fully restored.

124 Coupe - So do I read correctly that you've decided to keep this one for yourself? Good choice, if so. That is a gorgeous car. Does appear to have some of the rust monster eating away at a few bad spots. I think you're looking at a lot of work to remove what looks to be both the front and rear glass, and then cutting out cancer and welding in new metal. Not easy. Getting those pieces of glass out without breaking may be pretty important, not sure how readily available replacements would be. It's a gorgeous car, but I'm not sure I'd count on it being a daily driver anytime soon.

As for the carb question, since 1992 Weber has been manufacturing carbs in Spain, not Italy.
 
Ive been into 124,s for along time. The turbo is a bit more then just a spider plus. Its a very limited edition car, and well not bringing much more money these days, it will eventually. It was actually a better car with the automatic. You need to remember in those days cars were choked out with smog stuff. The turbo gave just enough to wake the car up.
Now that coupe is one sweet car. Wish it was mine.
 
Interesting Feedback

hiram6 said:
124 Coupe - So do I read correctly that you've decided to keep this one for yourself? Good choice, if so.
Click to expand...

No, I haven't *decided* to keep it. There is a difference between desire and necessity. I have several project cars as it is (including my DD, since it keeps finding new ways to have problems for me to fix).

I think it is very pretty, and I want it, but that doesn't mean that I can keep it. My wife would probably want me to get rid of a couple cars before I buy any more and thus far I've told her repeatedly that I'm not keeping these and won't have them at the house very long. She and the kids really like the coupe, though.

As far as fixing the rust, my bigger concern is getting the glass out without breaking it. So long as the rust isn't significantly worse than what I can already see, getting that fixed won't be too big of an issue. I have access to a professional welder (friend) who can help me out. The car would need a respray and between fixing rust, the respray and fixing whatever issues are keeping it from running right now, it would definitely need some $$$$ thrown into it. The question is whether it would still be worth as much or more than the costs to make it nice again.

Now, for the Spider, why do you say it is a "spider plus" and that the turbo was a "dog"? I have read that a lot of the turbo cars had the turbo removed, but thought that was probably just because the turbos eventually wore out. I know that turbos of the era had quite a bit of lag (I've been in turbo Porsche 924s and 944s), but from what I read the turbo made about 130hp, as compared to the non-turbo 2.0 FI car making 98 (IIRC -- I'm going off my fuzzy memory). So, aside from the delay, I would think that once the turbo spooled up it ought to have been pretty quick. Was it a case of "yes it made the hp, but most of the time it wasn't usable"?

I don't know about actual sales, since I suspect that they are fairly rare, but I did see a turbo spider listed through a dealership recently for $16k. That was an especially nice car, but I have the impression that, given the rarity, a turbo spider that has the original manifold and turbo ought to sell at a premium over a non-turbo car, particularly because I haven't seen anyone asking north of $10k for any other Spider since they were new.

Ultimately I always come back to a car is worth exactly what someone with the cash is willing to pay for it. But I'm trying to get a feel for where to set an asking price for the car, since I'm going to have to get approval for that price from the owner.

Thanks for the feedback.

Last, if anyone has ownership experiences to offer for either of these cars, that would be great.
 
One more thing

I agree that if the turbo equipment cannot be found or if it is non-functional, then the car is reallly just a Spider and not worth anymore than any other Spider. I also want to make it clear that I don't think this Spider is worth $16k, or even $10k. I was just making a point about comparative values between turbo and non-turbo cars.
 
Even with the Turbo, the 124 was only rated at around 120HP. A boost, so to speak, over regular FI cars, but still not tearing it up.

There are many other ways to boost the twincam engines performance that is more reliable and usable than the added on Legends turbo.

You will need to decide if the money and effort it would take to restore the turbo system will actually net you enough of a value increase to make it worthwhile. My money is it will not make financial sense.

I would flip the Spider, and keep the coupe. If you were closer, I'd be tempted to try to take the coupe of your hands.
 
You are right about easier and cheaper ways to to get more power out of a 124. I feel someone restoring an original turbo car would be more concerned about originality. There werent that many of them.
 
Although the Turbo is a rare car, a rusty incomplete one is likely not worth any more than most of the other semi rusty Spiders of similar vintage. They were not strong performers when new, the turbo really augmented the torque more than top end performance so they really made general driving more enjoyable than top end ripping around. They were like many early turbos of the era, less reliable than the normally aspirated versions but happily the engines didn't grenade as the turbo's or ancillaries failed. The design of the system didn't overstress the engines so the engines lasted.

As others have said one would really need to see pics of the car in detail to really give a real value. Having looked at the pics, it will really be about how complete can the car be made, the rust is minimal and certainly fixable with relative ease. The interior parts are fairly easy to come by and new dashboards can be had or covers applied. As is its a sub 3k car. Cleaned up it likely isn't worth over 5k. The Turbo's with all the vinyl tape like this one are definitely an acquired taste. A decent red one here in town sat on the market at a dealership for several years at 6K, I am not aware of the final sale price.

The Coupe is a 1969 which has had the original motor changed out. The 1438 would have had the distributor on the driver's side of the motor and would have had the thermostat in the head versus the later external thermostat on the right side of the engine, this could be a late 1608, 1592 or 1756cc motor as they all are an easy change out. The quad headlamp version of the car was introduced in the US as a 1970 model which is what I have. Yours has the proper side markers and so on for a '69. I do think the turn signals were changed to the Euro amber lenses as I recall my 1969 having red lenses though I could be mistaken.

The header on it is a typical aftermarket header which is still fairly popular and can be used on all the different variations of the 124 twin cam motor.

It also has the later electronic distributor, likely a Marelli Plex as I don't see a vacuum advance on it. The distributor likely needs a new pickup sensor given the condition of the wires shown, this would be the same part from the vacuum advance distributors found on the 2000cc motors and is not very expensive or hard to replace.

The carburetor is likely the same one offered on the SEAT 124 cars and was made under license (Solex also made licensed versions of some Webers as well). These cars were built by SEAT for the Spanish market in both the A and B body styles. SEAT was a subsidiary of FIAT prior to being bought by VW. All the SEATs were either earlier model FIATs or slight modifications to the same FIAT model. At least until near the end of SEATs life (the Ibiza designed by Guiguario was a very nice car built off the Ritmo chassis as I recall that looked like no FIAT).

This is a late A series car with the non-torque tube rear suspension which makes it slightly less desirable from a purist collector standpoint but most buyers will be completely happy with it. Its very likely to have a 5 speed particularly since the engine was changed out. My 1969 Coupe had a 5 speed which was a very common option at the time (I have only seen one with a 4 speed).

The window trim can be had, many of us have scavenged it over the years from junk yard casualties and given that it was made of stainless steel it sometimes was the only part one could scavenge...sadly.

The suspension has been cared for relatively recently given the condition of the parts shown. The front springs look to be aftermarket lowering springs which likely will help the handling of the car and certainly give it the proper stance...

I am not seeing any disturbing rust under the car but there are no pics of the real typical underside rusty areas: the area right behind the front wheels but inside the wheel house is a painful area for the coupe as is the bottom sponson of the trunk on each side behind the rear wheels. The seam where the rear apron meets the rear taillight panel behind the rear bumper is a point of pain on many of the cars as well. I could mark up some of your pics for you to show you where to look more carefully. The one pic which shows some bondo or other filler on the rocker or wherever that is could point to a deeper hidden problem.

Which brings us to the very visible rust around the windows. Sadly there appears to be plenty of work to do in these areas. Unfortunately the windows were re-glued in a non factory way which likely held water against the paint and has made the rust problem worse. The windshield and rear light will have to be cut out of the sealant and removed so the steel can be repaired properly or this will continue to get worse and worse. Normally its possible to remove these windows and not break them as the normal sealant was only on the inside face of the glass, with the way this looks it may be hard to save them. The windshields can be found, the rear lights are a tad rare. A fair amount of work in this area which will likely need some metal welded back in which means the majority of the interior will need to come out. Definitely fixable by someone who wants to.

If the wipers don't work its likely due to a plastic overmoulded gear in the wiper motor that has split (ask me how I know) that are impossible to find. The same part is used on some Ferarri's so perhaps they have remade them by now but know it will be pretty expensive.

So about that interior? Seat covers are available in OE vinyl (black only not the saddle/tan or white found on some cars) for under 700 bucks, the front seats are the same as the Spiders of the area so parts can be had. The headliner can be fabricated as many Euro cars had a similar material. The door and rear side panels are very hard to find and a clean uncracked dash is nearly un-obtainium. Instruments and switches are typical of the Spider so that isn't much of an issue. The console between the seats is also peculiar to the Coupes and are also impossible to find. The rear side window seals and trim parts are hard to source and clearly are a bit expired given how one can see them hanging about in disarray.

So about the price. A recent sale of a very very nice 1970 Sport Coupe (the 4 headlight version) went for north of 8k. A white 1969 went early last year for around 12 as I recall on a nearly perfect car. A black rather scruffy 1969 was kicking around for quite a while and sold for under 3k last summer. There was a red Euro model 1969 for sale last year in the Indianapolis area with a 12k price, it sold after several rounds on ebay for less than that as I recall.

These cars are extremely rare in the US at this point a good one in really good shape is worth more than most Spiders but keep in mind they also have a more limited audience. They do sell whenever they are offered up however.

My guess is that this car will be in the 4-5k bracket assuming the interior is all there. If it was all fixed with all trim it could well be an 8k car assuming no other rust and hidden nastiness.

If it was me I would be keeping the Coupe with no question. I would love to have it as it looks to be a pretty solid car with some unfortunate but fixable rust. The modifications on the car are tasteful, properly carried out and look factory. Nothing has been effed with that didn't need to be and it shows.

I hope that helps.

Karl
 
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THANKS!!!

Karl -- that post was 'beer worthy' if ever there was one!:drink: That's exactly the kind of detail I was looking for.

I'm a bit disappointed that the 69 doesn't have the original motor, but by the same token I'm not surprised. The owner's kids thought it had a turbo on it, but I see no evidence of that. What is the best way to go about determining which engine is in this car, assuming I can't get that information from the owner (who I hope to meet up with in a little over a week)?

I found out that my Dad's best friend had one of these back in the day. My Dad commented that there were all kinds of 'tricks' to improve the performance of the 1438cc and spoke fondly of that particular version of the FIAT twin cam motor.

BTW it does have a five speed in it -- I went through the shift pattern trying to verify that I had the car in first when I loaded it on the trailer.

As to your offer to point out in photos the areas to search out other rust -- that would be great. I have my suspicions as well, but thus far haven't found anything on the underside or in the wheel wells. I figured the trunk would be a good area but haven't been able to look yet.

Also, the kids haven't been able to find all the keys for these cars. Right now I don't have the door/trunk key. Do you know of any way to get the trunk open without the key, without doing damage to the car? I don't know if the photos I took show it, but there is duct tape on the left rear quarter panel to cover a hole where the radio antenna was installed (side note: the car as a Marantz head unit and amplifier in it -- I never knew Marantz made car audio equipment). I plan to get key blanks and have keys made -- we did that for the X and it wasn't difficult or terribly expensive.

As to the Spider, it sounds like I should just clean it up, get it running, and sell it, without worrying about the turbo kit. My 'plan' wasn't really to try to reinstall the equipment so much as to sell it with the car so that if a buyer was looking for an original turbo car to restore they'd have all the bits. It sounds like it won't enhance the bottom line but might make the car a bit more attractive to the right party. The Spider is otherwise a nice car that needs a bit of rust repair and a paint job. The interior is all there and generally in good shape. The rear seat cushion was missing when I photographed the car but I'm told it was in the garage of the house where the car is parked. I will know for sure what I've got on that one come Saturday.

As to the vinyl, I suppose that most people wouldn't care. I thought it enhanced the 'period' look of the car. My experience is that those are the kinds of details that folks looking for originality like to see.
 
Bondo

Oh and one more thing ... the bondo you see is at the bottom corner of the driver's side sill at the front wheel well. I haven't had a moment to go through the photos and label them yet, but will.

O.k., more than one more thing...I think the front seats have been installed on the wrong side. I say this because the seat lift levers (to access the rear) are on the inside while the back rest adjusters are on the outside. I've never seen another car set up like this and it doesn't make sense to me. Am I right?
 
Yes the seats are installed on the wrong side, however it doesn't hurt anything. Easily fixed of all the things wrong with it.

I will fiddle with the pics sometime this evening.

The engine codes are on the block just above the oil filter housing

1438 will start with 124AC.
1608 will start with 125A.
1592 will start with 132.AC.040 or 132.A.040
1756 will start with 132.A1. or 132.AC1

Have a look at this page: http://www.netikka.net/ville.vieri/tc/tclist.htm
or this http://www.mirafiori.com/id/tableeng.html

As for the keys, a good locksmith can make you a new set. Sadly there isn't an easy way to get into the trunk of the Coupe without the key, the Spider I think there is a place you can drill a hole. I will check into it.

The bummer of repainting the Spider is that you won't be able to easily save the vinyl graphics and they are hard to replace. One could have them remade like we have seen people do with the stripes on the X.
 
kmead said:
The bummer of repainting the Spider is that you won't be able to easily save the vinyl graphics and they are hard to replace. One could have them remade like we have seen people do with the stripes on the X.
Click to expand...

I have had both Turbo specific stickers reproduced in silver & gold.

There are lots of folks currently putting a lot of time & $$$ into Turbo Spiders. While the value is not up where it needs to be yet, it's going up.
If your car is missing the turbo specific bits, they are impossible to find. And most things are currently unavailable. In the day it was very common to pull all of the turbo stuff off a car with a failed component, and just convert it back to the way it was born so it could be used.

Chris Obert
 
Picked up the Turbo Spider and an bunch of parts today. Included in the parts were replacement vinyl stickers. And a new turbo.

Details to follow.
 
That Coupe looks familiar. I logged in the first 300 or so 124 Coupes when I had the website, Rob C. up in Vancouver BC took it over for me a few years back. The format is generally the same. You can search by VIN and year. Some of the prior owners listed specific features, upgrades and modifications. Those points are still being used.

Go to http://www.fiat124sportcoupe.com/index.htm

There's also an Italian website (I forget the operators name at the moment). He's done a great job of finding Coupes in that part of the world.
 
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