124 Pricing

Thanks for the info

I'll look into that in detail when I get home.

Both of these cars came from Washington State and moved down here to AZ sometime between 1999 and 2004.
 
Engine Detail...

Gents:

I took a closer look at the engine on the 124 Coupe today. The engine number is 125BC 040, which so far as I can tell is the 1608cc motor (i.e., not original to this car). Is there a way to determine from what car this particular motor came? And year of manufacture? It's not terribly critical (I don't think) but could be useful to the extent of any model year changes that might affect settings, performance, etc.

Also, though the block on this car is 125BC 040, the head says 124AC 0000. Thoughts? I don't have a reference manual handy that will clue me in on these details, which is why I am inquiring here.

Other news: I happened to get key blanks with the car. Last weekend I removed the driver door handle. Today my buddy John used one of the blanks to hand cut a new door key. Tried it on the trunk and successfully got it open. The battery looked fairly new and was placed in what appeared to be a home-made plastic box. I put the trickle charger on the battery and have left it for a while to see if I can get the battery to hold a charge. If not, that will fall on the list of 'to-dos'.

Now that we have full access to the car I can begin the process of trying to get it operational. Next plan is to replace the timing belt (cause you just never know) and drain and replace all of the fluids. Also, the carb looks to me like someone has fussed with it, so I may have to pull it and check settings. To that end, can anyone tell me what would be a baseline for the carb settings for the 1608cc motor? Which carb was commonly used, etc.? As I mentioned above, it has a Spanish-made weber on it right now, but I can't be certain of the model, venturi sizes, etc. as yet.

As always, thanks.
 
The SPIDER OTOH...

Unfortunately none of the key blanks we had fit the Spider's door lock. However, since we happen to have another Spider, we tried the door keys from it and VIOLA! a fit! So, now I just have to order the right blank and then we can get the key cut and move forward on that car, too.

Hopefully over the next month I'll get them both running. I know that's optimistic, but I have to keep telling myself this so that I'll keep pressing forward. This car has tags that expired in 2011, and I suspect that the main reason it stopped being driven was simply that the owner was no longer physically capable of getting into and out of the car. So I tend to believe that once I get good fuel, a good battery, fresh oil and other fluids, etc. it will run and drive.
 
1608

I took a closer look at the engine on the 124 Coupe today. The engine number is 125BC 040, which so far as I can tell is the 1608cc motor (i.e., not original to this car). Is there a way to determine from what car this particular motor came? And year of manufacture?

The 125BC.040 engine is indeed the 1608. It was offered late1971-73. Some helpful links:

http://www.mirafiori.com/id/tableeng.html
http://www.mirafiori.com/id/table124.html


Also, though the block on this car is 125BC 040, the head says 124AC 0000. Thoughts? I don't have a reference manual handy that will clue me in on these details, which is why I am inquiring here.

The 124AC000 head casting number is correct for the 1608 engine. Pete Angel has a nice write-up on DOHC heads here:

http://www.mirafiori.com/faq/content/headid/headid.html


To that end, can anyone tell me what would be a baseline for the carb settings for the 1608cc motor? Which carb was commonly used, etc.? As I mentioned above, it has a Spanish-made weber on it right now, but I can't be certain of the model, venturi sizes, etc. as yet.

IIRC, the 1608 used a Weber 28/36 DHSA2? Being Spanish-made is not an issue. The carb model number is stamped on the side of the carb base, & the venturi size(s) are often cast into the center/side of the carb.
 
THANK YOU SO MUCH!!!

That Coupe looks familiar. I logged in the first 300 or so 124 Coupes when I had the website, Rob C. up in Vancouver BC took it over for me a few years back. The format is generally the same. You can search by VIN and year. Some of the prior owners listed specific features, upgrades and modifications. Those points are still being used.

Go to http://www.fiat124sportcoupe.com/index.htm

I finally checked this link out and compared the VIN and DID find the car on that site! Thanks so much! I now know far more detail about what was done to the car. Here is the owner's report from 2011:

PBS modified engine with large valves, cams, large 36 Weber, header, all new suspension, brakes, driveline, Nardi steering wheel, battery relocated to trunk, 13 x 7 alloy wheels, lowered 1.5", all original interior
 
Today John and I worked on the 124 Coupe.

We removed the radiator and the alternator v-belt, and bought a new v-belt -- though we haven't yet installed it.

We replaced the stretched and loose timing belt with a new one. To remove the timing belt cover we had to remove the t-pipe that fits through it to the top of the head. That destroyed the gasket but thankfully we had a spare in our various parts bins.

I removed the old plugs, but it appears the new plugs I got are different than what is in the car now. Meanwhile the existing plugs don't look bad. I put the old ones back for now. Then we pressure washed the engine again (now that we had more access), and flushed the old coolant out of the motor, along with some old glycol gel.

We think the rad is silted up and will need to be hot tanked, but we're not sure if we want to spend our money to do it or just try flushing it and then leaving the more serious work to the next owner (since so far the owner hasn't jumped at our offer to buy the car). We're going to need to replace the various hoses to the head, thermostat, and radiator.

I washed out the trunk area (one of the few areas I didn't get when I cleaned a couple weeks ago) -- essentially I sponge washed it to keep it from getting too wet. It took 4 little buckets of water to get it clean; I had to keep dumping out the silted water in the bucket.

We bought a new battery and installed it, but didn't hook it up yet. While the one in the car didn't seem that old, it wouldn't hold a charge.

The owner's son claimed to have spent several hundred dollars trying to get this car running. I haven't found any evidence of it. When we got the car it looked like it had been sitting out for years, being thoroughly dusty inside and out, in the engine bay and in the trunk. The timing belt looked old, the v-belt was so hard it held the triangulated shape of its fit in the water pump, alternator, and crank pulleys. The hoses looked spent and the t-stat and head t-pipe both looked corroded. John checked the oil this morning and it appeared to him to be overfull. I had planned to change the oil, anyway; I have oil and filters to do both cars and will likely tackle that in the a.m. when it is still cooler out. John added some brake fluid to the reservoir. If we can get the various engine maintenance issues sorted and get it running, we'll have to bleed the brakes just to make sure that they work properly (though they do work in the driveway, so we know that the system isn't completely perished). While working on the car today I got down low in the front and looked underneath. The anti-sway bar rubber bushings are spent -- I suspect most of the rest of the rubber is in similar condition.

Oh, and on top of it all, I found more rust today.
cryin.gif
It has bubbling all along the rear valance right behind the top of the rear bumper. It looks like it is penetrated, too, so that's going to require some work to repair as well.

John made a key for the Spider and we finally got its trunk open and put the trickle charger on the battery. This looked like a deep cycle battery, but I don't know. It tested at about 5.5V before charging and by the end of the day it had 11.86V. Can't seem to get it to or above 12V. I'll have to see if the charge holds until the morning.

I'm sure there are other things we did, but can't think of them at the moment. As always, we start the project and then realize a tool we need is at the other house...we really need a shop where we can keep all the tools and the cars. And a lift!

As I said above tomorrow I will do the oil changes on both cars, and we will likely tackle the Spider's timing belt, too. Hopefully the Spider will be in a bit better condition. If the battery holds up and we can get the belt(s) and plugs changed, and remove the old gas, we might be able to see if that one will start. Oh, and we're also going to finish up some stuff on John's house before his bride comes home from visiting their daughter in TX. And get another set of the blanks cut to fit the doors.
 
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Update

The two cars continue to sit in my driveway.

A week or so ago I cleaned around the motor of the Spider, removed the air cleaner, accessory drive belt, radiator, timing belt cover, etc. and got the car ready to remove the timing belt. I can't get it off by myself so I need my helper (who should be on his way as I type this). Decided to change the oil only to discover I didn't have the correct size allen wrench to remove the drain plug. So that project stalled. JB brought the allen down from his house but then I didn't have the time or desire to work on it again until today. So, this morning I drained the rather dark oil, cleaned the drain plug, changed the filter and put in fresh oil. I also drained all of the fuel out of the tank (8.5 gal of it).

Once I get the timing belt done I'll put back in all the bits I took out, change the plugs, put in fresh anti-freeze and water, put in fresh gas, and see if I can get this car to run. This car does not appear to have sat as long as the Coupe, and the battery that was in it is holding a charge, so I'm optimistic, but cautiously so.

***UPDATE***

Got the timing belt done, the radiator reinstalled, new gas, new coolant and distilled water. Checked compression, which was generally good. Tried to start -- no battery. Though the old battery has 12+V, it apparently has about 0 amps. Would barely do more than put the lights on the dash. BUT, we swapped in a new battery we had bought for the coupe and then the motor cranked. Tried for several minutes to get it to turn over but it just wouldn't go. Checked spark (again) by pulling #1 plug -- which was dry despite all the cranking. Cranked again and had spark, so we're suspecting the fuel pump isn't working (or isn't primed?). We've got about 2 gallons of new gas in the tank. Tomorrow we'll run diagnostics on the fuel system and see if we can figure out what's going wrong. We did get it to successfully turn over and run very briefly with a brief shot of carb cleaner into the throttle body.

***MORE UPDATE***

EDIT: Unfortunately, my manuals don't provide anything on the FI cars -- they end in 1978 (last of the 1.8l cars). However I found a couple resources online. I discovered that there are a few potential problem areas that might be causing my no-fuel issue.

First, we have the connector pipe between the air filter and the throttle body off. Actually, it connects from the AFM to the TB, and it is actually a critical part to the functioning of the system, as the AFM has a sprung door connected to it that moves a rheostat as air flows through. So without the aid of the motor pulling fuel through the AFM is in the "off" position. Well, it turns out that it triggers the ECU to turn on or off the fuel pump. I tried moving it with the ignition key on but didn't notice any change (i.e., didn't hear the fuel pump running or hear a relay switch), so that may not be the answer, though likely part of the problem.

Second, there is a double relay on the firewall under the dash on the passenger side, next to the ECU. That double relay apparently controls the fuel pump. It has an inline fuse going to it. So, I will need to check the fuse and the relay to verify that they operate. At one point we heard a buzzing noise around where the relays are, so it is possible they were working and then shut off for some reason (e.g. blown fuse). I will check that in the morning, as I'm out of daylight and the mosquitoes are out.

Third, the fuel pump itself could either be faulty or more likely could have a bad connector or ground. It apparently grounds near the tail lamp.

Hopefully one of those will be our problem and we'll get it sorted out.
 
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Success!!

UPDATE ON THE SPIDER:

This morning I ran diagnostics and learned that I had power all the way back to the pump. My friend turned the key to power the car and I tapped on the pump with the big end of a screw driver with rubber on the handle until it started working. We then turned the key and after a couple turns she fired right up. Ran a bit rough while the rest of the old gas burned out of the fuel lines and/or recirculated back to the tank, but once there was adequate fresh fuel coming in the rpms came up and she ran nicely. Idle is dead smooth. The tach says that the idle is a bit over 1000rpm but I think that the tach might be wrong. Haven't put the timing light on it yet to check the settings.

I drove it around the block, keeping it under 4000rpm for now. Ran well and under way the temp fell from around 200-210 to under 190. The electric fan never kicked on. We hot wired the fan to a spare battery and it came on, so we know that it works. Does anyone have any idea about what temp the fan usually comes on for one of these?

FWIW, 190 is dead center on the guage for this car. After stopping it and letting it cool for 10 min the head temps (with an infrared gun) were 190-195, the top of the rad was around 175 and the bottom around 132.

There are still plenty of issues to sort to make this car more reliable, but at least now I know that it runs.

Short video of it running (for those that say if there is no video/photo, it didn't happen).
 
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We continue to work with the 124 Turbo Spider to get it ready to sell, while waiting for parts for the Coupe. It's running pretty well. We've only put about 30 miles on it so far since getting it running, and most of that has been neighborhood and stop-and-go traffic type stuff. It runs pretty cool but with ambient temps around mid-day hitting the upper 80s I was able to get it fully to temp and hot enough that the radiator fan kicked on. That's a good sign because we flushed the radiator and these cars apparently can be nearly as difficult to bleed as an X. Apparently air can get trapped in the external thermostat and prevent water from circulating through the radiator. The thermoswitch for the fan is located at the bottom of the radiator, so until it hits about 190F +/- the fan won't kick on. The gauge on the dash climbed just a bit past 190 (which is only half way on this car) and the fan kicked on and kept it right around that temp or slightly cooler while fussing around in a parking lot.

Here are some more pics I took today:

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And here's the video of the car in operation (my buddy John is driving):

 
Update -- Sold!

A brief update...a friend bought the 82 for $2500 as-is. It is now his 16 yr. old daughter's car. She's a bit of a tomboy; JB and I are hopeful that she'll get the old-car bug and will maintain this car. In any event, it's across the street from JB's house so I still see it regularly.

JB ended up buying the 69. He wanted it from the moment he saw it (as did I really). I'm not in a position to throw more money into yet another old car right now and have no place to keep this car other than in my driveway, so I'm ready to see it go. Even though he bought it about a month ago, it still sits in my driveway. It will start or at least turn over, but won't run. Right now we're looking at carb issues.

Meanwhile the 80x sits in his driveway. We can't get the starter to turn on it and I don't know right now if it's the starter solenoid or the ignition switch or both. I haven't had time to explore. We're hoping to swap the cars soon. Once the 80 is back in my driveway I hope to get it running and then list it for sale. I like it immensely but it was only supposed to be a fix and flip and I need to get the cash out of it to finish the 74 that's sitting in my garage. So right now I'm in a sell-off phase. In fact, I'm planning to fix some issues and then sell my 04 MINI Cooper S JCW daily driver, too. My older daughter will be getting her driving permit later this month and so I'm looking to off-load the vehicles that will be expensive to fix and therefore expensive to insure. I'm hoping to get enough out of the MINI to buy two cheap cars and perhaps have some extra cash to throw at the two remaining projects (I also have a 911 that needs attention).

Anyway, I've gone off topic in my own thread...
 
about the front seat tilt-forward levers...

Hi guys, great thread, lots of 124 sport coupe info. Re: the front seats being on the wrong sides, the '68 owners manual shows the front seats with the backrest tilt-forward levers on the inside toward the center console. Doesn't seem right or useful to me, but that may be how they were delivered.
 
Update on the 124 Coupe

My buddy JB bought the 124 Coupe. He ended up getting a fresh carburetor from Vick's and installing that. Once the carb was installed, it just took a minute or so of turning it over to get the carb primed and then it started right up...without even tuning the carb it ran pretty well. We even each took it for a drive around the neighborhood.

Here's a brief video of it running:

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=10202701151427168

It still needs a LOT of work, but it felt good to at least get it running again.
 
Enjoying this story!!

The vibe of this thread is so nice. It really portrays the humanity of messing around with old cars.
 
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