Another Coolant pipe saga

79X19

79X19

True Classic
I've been restoring my 1981 X for a little over a year now and have gone all in. Don't know for sure the condition of all the systems so in favor of hoping they will all be solid after 36 years i'm replacing everything so I know for sure that it wont let me down and leave me stranded somewhere. That leads me to the coolant pipes. Since I was replacing the radiator i began inspecting the pipes. At the ends of the pipe nearest the radiator the left pipe (facing the car) has corroded at the 6 o'clock position to the point of having a 1/2" x 1/2" section of it fall off in my hand when I removed the hose. Also the right tube has what looks like barnacles on the inside walls which are rust. That made me question the integrity of the tubes along the entire length.
I've seen the full replacement projects and I've seen the copper pipe within the current pipe repair.
My question is has anyone done an external replacement of the tubes running along side of the tunnel? Is this even possible?
 
It seems possible but Murphy would back the fact that two tubes hanging out under a low car, if unprotected, will get damaged. I replaced a set in a rusty '86 and if I were to do it again I would seriously consider not opening the tunnel...
If you sleeve the existing tubes that will reduce the flow but if you upgrade the radiator it maybe an acceptable trade.
Regards
 
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rocco79/138 said:
It seems possible but Murphy would back the fact that two tubes hanging out under a low car, if unprotected, will get damaged. I replaced a set in a rusty '86 and if I were to do it again I would seriously consider not opening the tunnel...
If you sleeve the existing tubes that will reduce the flow but if you upgrade the radiator it maybe an acceptable trade.
Regards
Click to expand...
Thanks for the reply. In your opinion if there is corrosion at the pipe end nearest the radiator and corrosion evident within the pipe that it's best to replace the tubes? I've attached pics for review
 
If you do decide to replace the tubes, I bought a set of new ones from B&M Racing. They are made out of stainless and were well made.

Brown & Miller Racing
4005 Dearborn Pl., NW
Concord, NC 28027

704-793-4319

http://www.bmrs.net/

North Carolina
 
Thanks for the referral. How did you remove the tunnel? Did you drill out the spot welds then reattach with rivets? Also about how much were the SS tubes?
 
Sorry I should have mentioned I have a Lancia Scorpion and the panel that covers the coolant pipes is removable. B&M racing also makes coolant pipes for the X1/9.
 
You should be able to fit new pipes externally in between the tunnel and the foot wells/seat bulges (will need a bit of tin bashing at the rear) and keep the pipes tucked up fairly high. On my Track Day X1/9 I wanted to reduce the weight so I removed the old pipes by cutting the bends off at the rear and by wriggling and pulling, the straight section of pipe can be pulled out of the tunnel from the front. I then slid in new pipes of 35mm diameter without the bends at the back, and attach new bend sections with a sleeve or larger pipe to slide over the 35mm dia, bonded in place with a coolant resistant silicone sealant (I also put in 1 sealed pop rivet thru the 2 pieces of pipe to make sure they can't come apart). I used aluminium tube for lightness, but it is very difficult to bend without splitting, if you can get stainless steel the right size it would be the way to go. You could also use rubber radiator hose at the rear to connect to the original X1/9 hoses, but you will need a flared end on the steel tube to prevent it popping off under pressure. ps I also put some small smears of silicone on the straight section of tube to prevent it from rattling inside the supports in the tunnel, but this may not be necessary if the tube is a snug fit.
Just another option that may be easier than removing the tunnel.
 
Sorry for the delay. We were crashing a wedding...:)
They look pretty rough but the end looks like it is the result of a leak. You could connect the two at the rear and seal one front up and pressure test them... Not sure what pressure but I would go higher than the 13psi cap rate. Basically just pressure in the tubes and you want them to fail if they will.
 
Here is the updated costs for the Coolant tubes made from SS via Brown & Miller.....

Kevin,
The part numbers and prices are:
LWT-T003 - $235 (1.25” Water Tube)
LWT-T004 - $235 (1.25” Water Tube)
LWT-T005 - $97.63 (.625” Water Tube)

The estimated shipping costs are $125

If i'm going to restore it might as well go all in. Cant test the current tubes and don't want to flood a new radiator with crud. Jump in with both feet.....
 
Rick (unless Rick no longer works there) is the contact at Brown & Miller racing in NC.

Many years ago, sent a set of coolant tubes to B&M for Rick to copy into a cad file (i'm guilty of this). Since then, these tubes have been available to anyone who knows about them, they can order direct from B&M.

B&M also has SST tubes for the Lancia Scorpiacarlo.


The coolant tube box is structural, DO NOT SIMPLY RIP THE BOX APART as too many do trying to replace the coolant tubes. There are a LOT of spot welds that secure the coolant tube box, consider why Bertone did this if there was not good reason to. Proper way to remove the box is to put the exxe on a ift and drill each and every spot weld out. There are clamps inside the coolant tube box that secure the tubes.

Once the new tubes are fitted, how ever the coolant tube box is secured to the body must be equal or better than OEM. This could mean lots of plug welds or rivetnuts & screws, structural rivets (cherry rivets with the alloy steel stem) or similar.

Or why scheduled coolant change are a must for the exxe. Once the coolant is neglected the coolant tube problem happens and happens rapidly.


Bernice
 
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OK, I have heard the structural argument before. The ITC racer I bought had the box completely removed. I got another X that had rusted pipes and I cut off the bottom of the box to replace the pipes with SS pipes...I also had to replace the steel heater pipe in the box. I was going to weld the bottom of the box back on but decided not too. I looked at the center shifter tunnel and realized it was stronger than the tunnel in my spider. The side sills are very robust. The metal used in pipe tunnel is very thin. Obviously any box structure will add strength. At this point I'm not convinced the coolant pipe box is critical to the longitudinal strength of the X chassis.

My opinion and not based on any facts, just my above observations.
 
I did a bit of research in the german forum to see how people there have handled the problem.

First of all, there may be differences in how the pipes are held in between different Xs, since some people swear they couldn't pull the pipes out of the tunnel, others could.

Different approaches used:
1) Remove tunnel and replace with custom bent stainless steel pipes.
2) Cut pipes off front and back, pull out pipes and replace with copper tubing which is available in just about the identical OD. Connect old bent sections to new pipes with length of hose.
3) Leave old pipes in and insert smaller copper pipes. Adapt to old bent sections with silicone hose adapters (ebay). These hoses have different ID on each end, very convenient. One person reported no change in cooling behavior with the smaller pipes.

So basically, people have come up with the same solutions around the globe. :)

Side note, I would be careful not to discount the rusty pipes on 79X19. I have a feeling (no hard evidence) that the sections where the hoses connect rust the worst. So maybe inspect the pipes further to see if they can be salvaged. My pipes look about the same and I have run a wire brush on a drill motor inside the pipe (very tight fit, removes all rust and crud) so that I can see the first couple of inches of pipe clearly. It looks fine with plenty of wall thickness and no structural rust. I plan on filling the pipes with diluted phosphoric acid to remove a layer of rust deposit (already did this on the inside of the block, worked well) and hope for the best. But if you don't mind the time and effort, changing out the pipes would be optimal of course.

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Thanks to all for your advice. I think I'll test them to see if I can get away with keeping them. But if not could it be possible that Bertone spot welded the box as much as they did to keep it from getting ripped off in the event that the box encountered an object while diving? They wanted to keep the tubes protected and what better way to protect them, to build a box and make sure it doesn't get peeled off at 70 MPH. Just a thought. Also if I were to "open" the box and then recover it with an structural cover that could be riveted along the sides to attach it to the sides of the original box could that be an option? I don't have access to a lift but don't want to cut corners. Thanks to all for your feedback!!!
 
The only data point I have is that on one of my X's the box had been cut off by a previous owner to replace the tubes and on the other four it had not; that one did not have fatigue cracks in the central spine (radiating out from the holes cut in the tunnel top for the shifter and ebrake) while two of the ones with intact boxes did.
 
I too have cracks in the shifter opening and thought it unique to my car. They were there when I bought the car and before I cut the box bottom off.
 
Rupunzell said:
Rick (unless Rick no longer works there) is the contact at Brown & Miller racing in NC.

Many years ago, sent a set of coolant tubes to B&M for Rick to copy into a cad file (i'm guilty of this). Since then, these tubes have been available to anyone who knows about them, they can order direct from B&M.

B&M also has SST tubes for the Lancia Scorpiacarlo.


The coolant tube box is structural, DO NOT SIMPLY RIP THE BOX APART as too many do trying to replace the coolant tubes. There are a LOT of spot welds that secure the coolant tube box, consider why Bertone did this if there was not good reason to. Proper way to remove the box is to put the exxe on a ift and drill each and every spot weld out. There are clamps inside the coolant tube box that secure the tubes.

Once the new tubes are fitted, how ever the coolant tube box is secured to the body must be equal or better than OEM. This could mean lots of plug welds or rivetnuts & screws, structural rivets (cherry rivets with the alloy steel stem) or similar.

Or why scheduled coolant change are a must for the exxe. Once the coolant is neglected the coolant tube problem happens and happens rapidly.


Bernice
Click to expand...
As of 2023 Rick is still there Pricing now. LWT-T003 $333.88, LWT-T004 $333.88, and LWT-T005 $142.18.
 
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