another V6 swap option

B

Bass Ken

Low Mileage
Hi All,

I'm an occasional Xweb lurker (I have an '87 Bertone), but never noticed the X1/20 forum until now! It's great to see discussions about one of my favorite cars ever - I've owned #999 since 1981.

In all the swap discussions, I haven't seen much talk about the Honda/Acura J-series V6. Apologies to the purists, but to me this is an ideal swap candidate. It's a compact, high revving 60 degree aluminum 4 valve VTEC design that easily fits the Scorpion engine bay (I had previously removed the protruding shelf below the rear window for my Lancia Thema turbo engine swap). J-series engines are ubiquitous, and many performance parts are readily available. It's not Italian, but I think it fits the character of the car, and we all know the Monte/Scorp was originally intended to have V6 power.

Here's a pic of my J32a2, 3.2 liters and 260 hp stock. I should get a bit more hp with the headers and true dual exhaust. Mine has the 6 speed transaxle and limited slip differential.


Here is a WIP photo of the engine in the car, sorting the wiring in order to use the stock ECM. Later I plan to upgrade to a programmable ECM.


I'm collecting build pictures and am looking for a place to post them. I used to post on Lancisti.net but their photo gallery isn't very accessible any more. I guess I could post here - any other suggestions?

Thanks,
Ken H.
 
Wecome, Ken

Glad you found the X1/20 forum. Not near as much activity as the X1/9 forum, but still a lot of good stuff there.

Looking forward to seeing more details about your swap. I think that's a great motor to start with. Glad you are keeping it stick-shift.

As far as places to document your build, it can be done here but I find that, over time, that becomes impractical because threads get locked and cluttered up with comments, etc. When I started my 037 project, I decided it best to start a blog on Wordpress. It's free and simple, and if you have an update, you can just post a link to it here.

Say, I notice you signed your name "Ken H". Would that last name be Haven, as in, Ken "High Boost" Haven?

Pete
 
Welcome Ken,

This is going to be interesting... Non-Italian engine-transaxle in this Lancia- Pininfarina chassis is pretty much not significant. Really not much different than the Honda K20-K23 conversion done on the Fiat-Bertone x1/9 chassis.

Looking forward to where this project ends up. There has already been SO much that has been done to this ScorpiaCarlo.

As for posting images, google's Picasa can work. This allows keep an image library with fixed links to images (don't move them around in the album once made or the link location is lost).


Bernice
 
Welcome Ken!

I recently did a timing belt and seals on my neighbor's Honda V6 and wondered about a swap, I look forward to seeing how yours progresses.
 
Thanks All for the suggestions, I will check them out. Yes, I was tagged with the 'High Boost' moniker on Lancisti but will now need to find a new one since I'm going normally aspirated.

This is an 'as time permits' project so progress is slow, although I'm itching to get the car back on the road. As if a swap wasn't a big enough project (as Bernice pointed out on another thread), I'm also further upgrading the brakes and rewiring the entire car. More on those later.

To give you an idea of current status of the swap project, I've completed the following:

  • motor mounts
  • crossmember mods
  • fuel tank mods (I'm keeping the original location)
  • fuel system
  • shifter (I was able to make Acura CLS shifter/cables work with a bit of added linkage)
  • half shafts
  • dual SS exhaust system
Still a ways to go, though!


- Ken H.
 
That would have been the High Boost H... Moniker from back then, it was well deserved as those who have been in this Lancia under boost would understand..

At some point this Lancia was converted to a Tilton pedal assembly with twin brake masters and balance bar, MR2 rear brake calipers & vented rotors and a LOT more...

Essentially, this is one of THE most modified ScorpiaCarlos around.

At some point when the project is up and running, we need to get this ScorpiaCarlo on the chassis set up rig and adjust it to a starting point.

So far the LeMons racer and Miata has been adjusted with excellent results.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eD4uoIf9_v8



Bernice




Bass Ken said:
Yes, I was tagged with the 'High Boost' moniker on Lancisti but will now need to find a new one since I'm going normally aspirated.

This is an 'as time permits' project so progress is slow, although I'm itching to get the car back on the road. As if a swap wasn't a big enough project (as Bernice pointed out on another thread), I'm also further upgrading the brakes and rewiring the entire car. More on those later.

- Ken H.
Click to expand...
 
That's an awesome chassis adjustment setup, Bernice! Thanks for the offer, and count me in on a setup session. I don't have any weight data on the new motor but I'm guessing no more than 100 lbs over the original TC. Will be interesting to get some real data.

- Ken H.

Rupunzell said:
At some point when the project is up and running, we need to get this ScorpiaCarlo on the chassis set up rig and adjust it to a starting point.

So far the LeMons racer and Miata has been adjusted with excellent results.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eD4uoIf9_v8


Bernice
Click to expand...
 
Why did you ditch the HP Lancia engine?

Hey Ken,

Saw that you sold the old power plant. Why did you move away from the Lancia engine?

Very best,

DeadScorp
 
I am also performing an engine swap on one of my scorpions. I have been a fiat mechanic for 20 years. i closed my shop in 2002. I have always peen partial to my scorpions. I have had some real fire breathing fiat engines in these cars but still 150hp is still no match for 250hp v6 with the torque increase as well. I am currently placing a 6g72 (3000gt engine) into one of my scorpions. The engineering is what i feel is very close to what fiat would have done if they could. 4 valve / cyl, 4 ohc, great package and weight. I might have chosen an alfa v6 but that has already been done. Also in the future i have a twin turbo version to try as well. 350hp +





 
Last edited:
Down the rabbit hole!

Wow Ken looks like I may have to swing by and see your work! (Maybe lend a hand too) I was originally thinking of doing a K20 swap, then onto the idea of an Alfa 164S V6, and now I am looking at your photos and my brain is overloading with too many options!
Regardless please post tons of pics. Better yet, you can just have a link to a photobucket account and set it to public. Best to have a car only account so nobody gets curious about your private life...Unless you want that public too.
:grin:
 
Lancia MonteCarlo chassis was originally designed for V6 power. That was the plan until the first oil crisis which pretty much killed off any motor car with significant fuel consumption. This is a historical fact most gear folks have forgotten and how this reality of the time affected ALL motor car designs and production. Adding to this proposed crash testing by the US Government had a significant effect further affecting motor car design and production.

It was a miracle that the MonteCarlo ever made it into production at all even if it was very much an un-finished design. Yet, there are many, many aspects of this design that was patented and absolutely innovative that can be found in production cars to this day. Few car folks realize or are aware of this fact. The only engine available for Fiat to use in a chassis like this that was Federalized was their 1800cc twin cam. So many complained about the lack of power. This was no surprise as the chassis was originally designed and intended to have something near 200 Bhp & 150+ lb/ft of torque. One quick look at the rear suspension and drive line parts related confirm this as fact. It is also why the engine mounts on this chassis are bolted in rather than welded in place. There was absolutely every intent that a different power train be optional. This option never happened.

If going the Alfa Romeo V6 route, consider the last twin cam/ four valve 3.0 liter version sold in the last version of the 164 sold in the US. This Alfa motor was so good Cosworth was bent and driven to purchase the design, production rights and tooling for Cosworth to produce it as a race motor. After some discussions between Alfa & Cosworth, Alfa said no deal.

One other alliterative that I'm likely going to do for the Scopicarlo project is to install a SAAB B204 or B234 with transaxle. Reason being, similar weight to the stock drive train, 200+ Bhp with 200+ lb/ft of torque as delivered, extremely reliable and durable power train. B204 or B234 can be upped boost to twice the power delivered and remain reliable with stock motor internals making it one of the very few production motors that can be treated this way.

If one where to finish up this design Lancia was not able to, the MonteCarlo become a very nice Italian Exotic by every definition, in every way. It is very much intended to be a later day Ferrari Dino that never had the chance during it's very short production life.

Lancia MonteCarlo is the first car Sergio Pininfarina put his signature on, he liked the design that much.


Bernice











motoTrooper said:
I was originally thinking of doing a K20 swap, then onto the idea of an Alfa 164S V6, and now I am looking at your photos and my brain is overloading with too many options!
Click to expand...
 
DeadScorpion said:
Saw that you sold the old power plant. Why did you move away from the Lancia engine?

DeadScorp
Click to expand...

The engine was fine on the street or at auto-x events, but fell short of my expectations for reliability at track events where the engine is under full boost for an extended time. Running a turbo engine at more than 300 hp generates thermal problems that I wasn't able to totally work out. I think a charge cooler versus my air/air intercooler would have helped, but I was itching for a V6 and decided to launch this project.

- Ken H.
 
My son and I plan on a J35 swap into a 1991 Miata this spring.

Figure this project, that he is quite pumped about, would let him learn a colossal amount about what going on under the hood of the car.
 
Driveshafts & Crossmember info

Ken thanks for sharing! My Scorp is engine less at the moment and this post came at an opportune time.

Regarding the driveshafts can you expand on how you got around this modification? Also do you have any pictures dealing with the crossmember modifications?

Thanks,
Ralph

Bass Ken said:
Thanks All for the suggestions, I will check them out. Yes, I was tagged with the 'High Boost' moniker on Lancisti but will now need to find a new one since I'm going normally aspirated.

This is an 'as time permits' project so progress is slow, although I'm itching to get the car back on the road. As if a swap wasn't a big enough project (as Bernice pointed out on another thread), I'm also further upgrading the brakes and rewiring the entire car. More on those later.

To give you an idea of current status of the swap project, I've completed the following:

  • motor mounts
  • crossmember mods
  • fuel tank mods (I'm keeping the original location)
  • fuel system
  • shifter (I was able to make Acura CLS shifter/cables work with a bit of added linkage)
  • half shafts
  • dual SS exhaust system
Still a ways to go, though!


- Ken H.
Click to expand...
 
Axles are not difficult as there are a number of ways to achieve this from modified axles by cutting to length and splines machined on to the trimmed off end, to welded spliced axles (tricky to do properly and IMO the most difficult to method for reliability) to having new axles made.


Bernice


lanciahf said:
Regarding the driveshafts can you expand on how you got around this modification?

Thanks,
Ralph
Click to expand...
 
Rupunzell said:
Axles are not difficult as there are a number of ways to achieve this from modified axles by cutting to length and splines machined on to the trimmed off end, to welded spliced axles (tricky to do properly and IMO the most difficult to method for reliability) to having new axles made.

Bernice
Click to expand...

I machined the axles to self-fixture to each other with a SS rod (see before/after picture), tacked them together on a lathe, and finished with a multi-pass TIG weld. Aside from keeping everything concentric, this should prevent flailing half shafts if the weld were to fail. I may add an outer sleeve for extra strength.



A friend of mine who swapped a Toyota V6 in his Scorpion found a place that can make axles with the spline pattern of your choice for a reasonable price. That's probably the safest approach.

- Ken H.
 
lanciahf said:
K Also do you have any pictures dealing with the crossmember modifications?
Click to expand...

Major cutouts needed to clear the front exhaust and the A/C pulley and belt (yep, I'm keeping the A/C!). Can't see it from here, but a lot of reinforcement has been added to compensate for the cutouts.



- Ken
 
You know what.....

Ken I think for your own piece of mind you should make two of everything :grin: just to be sure. I can volunteer my car as a test mule.
 
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