Engine suddenly stops running

[kmead]

So, this just happened. Driving along this morning going from house A to B. About a mile from my destination when I can feel that the engine is no longer delivering power.

Pull into a side street no problem.

Go to turn it over and it spins freely with no hint of starting. Full tank of gas. Pop the cover on the AFM with the ignition on, move the lever and get the familiar hum of the fuel pump. Pop the distributor cap and everything inside is intact. Pop off the little viewport on the timing belt, belt is intact though it could have jumped a tooth as we all know, particularly since it has 33 years of age on it (yeah I know...)

Any thoughts? Ignition module (I have extra) or distributor pickup both seem like good candidates.

This is a first in 40 years of owning them never had to get one towed

Thanks

 

[JimD]

I suppose you checked the piggy back connector to the coil? Without it, the engine will crank for days and never catch.

Note the empty male spade on the coil below. Took me hours to figure this out when it happened to me.

And here it is hooked up.

 

[kmead]

All visible fuses are good. Combi relay is clicking properly.

Is there a single fuse that is an orphan in the injection system? I recall one being discussed but have never seen it myself.

Yes that fine wire was the first thing I checked. Good call however. Not that I ever pulled it by accident on this car about 30 years ago and pulled my hair out for a day...

Pulled and jiggled all manner of connections my fat little hands can reach

 

[Jefco]

Have you tried a timing light, or starter fluid, to see if it's spark or fuel?

 

[JimD]

Did you wash the car or have it out in the rain? Water in the side pod where the ignition box lives? Water in the FI harness? Bad combo relay?

IIRC There is a fused line directly to the combo relay. BobbyB had a nice wiring guide picture in this thread, but the picture is dead. And the link was postimg, not photobucket.

 

[carl]

You need to figure out if you are dealing with spark or fuel. You can get those cute spark testers that have a glass bulb and show a spark if firing or do it the old fashion way of grounding a plug on the block.

I'm assuming you are joking about 33 years with the same timing belt? In any event, the motor would probably still run with the belt jumped one tooth.

 

[kmead]

Nope no washing of late so no water in the sponson.

Sadly not joking about the timing belt but it has always been dry ie no oil leaks, no cracks or other bad signs. I know bad owner. It may well get changed this week.

Well, got got my wife to tow it home and used the starter to get it up the driveway with no problems.

Time to do some housework and will figure this out some evening this week. Such fun on a Sunday.

Thank you for the suggestions, I will gather some bits and baubles this week and fiddle with it some more.

Greatly appreciated.

 

[JimD]

Karl,

I got the picture from BobbyB and added in back in to the thread I linked above. Take a look, he shows a 12ga unfused wire coming directly from the battery to the combo relay. I think the fuel pump is powered from the combo too. If true, that and its unfused nature, might eliminate this power wire as an issue

 

[kmead]

Thank you. I will hopefully have an update later this week.

 

[kmead]

A brief update. It is a spark issue.

When I first turn the key to “on”, I get a single spark from the main lead of the coil.

After that when cranking no additional spark. I will substitute an alternative control box to see if it is that or back at the distributor (which is really my main suspect).

Likely update later this week, working on our old house for the foreseeable future so little time for cars.

Thanks

 

[Doc]

Just something to mention... I’ve got my own thread going about the BWM and some starting problems I’m having... one point I’ve noticed is that if I turn the key and the dash lights and gauges *don’t* come on, it will crank endlessly and not start. If the dash lights and gauges *do* come on, it starts immediately. So, check the status of your dash lights and gauges when you click the key into the first position... just to make sure.

 

[JimD]

Couldn't it be the ignition switch itself Karl? Seems like I have read here on Xweb of folks needing to jiggle the keys in the switch to get the car to start.

 

[Doc]

Couldn't it be the ignition switch itself Karl? Seems like I have read here on Xweb of folks needing to jiggle the keys in the switch to get the car to start.

That’s exactly what I was getting at, but in re-reading my post I didn’t make it clear that the dash lights on/dash lights off seems to be totally ignition switch related.

 

[JimD]

That’s exactly what I was getting at, but in re-reading my post I didn’t make it clear that the dash lights on/dash lights off seems to be totally ignition switch related.

Sorry Doc, I actually typed up my reply and "thought" I posted from my phone it much earlier today. I was travelling most of the day and when I got to my PC I saw I had typed, but not posted my reply. I posted it and then saw yours. We are thinking along the same lines.

 

[kmead]

It is a possibility.

My lights did light, there did seem like an anomaly in the way the relays behaved when the key went to the start position that I am curious about.

I will report back.

 

[kmead]

Minor update:

Using this fine link from our Wiki of a scan from the factory manual:
http://xwebforums.com/wiki/images/2/2e/WrokshopManual_39.pdf
I have ascertained my problem is likely in the distributor magnetic pickup:

Basically no reading when checking for Ohmage across the connectors (7 and 31d) to the pickup assembly. The connection to 7 and the body of the distributor gave me an infinite reading.

Looking forward to using this part of the Wiki to guide me in replacing the above part:
http://xwebforums.com/wiki/index.php/Distributor

Having the XWeb as a resource is a wonderful thing.

Ordered a part off eBay, we shall see if it is the part that failed or possibly the cable (woudn’t that be a kicker...hmm continuity check to be done?)

Off to go work on wiring at my old house, update later in the week on the ignition issues on the X after the part comes in

 

[lookforjoe]

There is a fiddly roll pin that locates the pickup trigger wheel, so be careful not to loose that when dismantling the distributor. Obviously better to remove the distributor and do the repair on the bench so you can service and grease the advance mechanism, oil the shaft etc while you are in there...

 

[kmead]

To close the loop on this:

I am a certifiable idiot. You can say it with me, certifiable idiot. Sure, I knew you could.

In 1993 I bought this car, it had 41ish thousand miles on it as I recall. Changed the oil, did some minor maintenance and it was driven from Los Angeles to Vermont. In the course of the trip it neede one minor repair to have the clutch slave cylinder repaired. It was driven all that summer and then placed in a bad storage arrangement when we moved from Vermont to Michigan. A few years later I pulled it from storage and drove it to Michigan. I ordered some parts from Art Bayless to do some maintenance prior to the trip. Amongst those parts was a timing belt which for a variety of reasons I didn’t install before the trip.

I drove the car for that summer and a bit the next spring and then put the car into storage. For a variety of reasons I didn’t replace the timing belt. The car then sat for the next twenty years, or so.

Last summer I did some minor maintenance and started driving the car again. I bought a variety of parts amongst them a new timing belt (see a trend here?) which because I have been busy I didn’t replace.

So it was the timing belt, duh. Car built in 1984, driven for a decent number of miles and the thing finally shears off a bunch of teeth, what kind of quality is that? It was supposed to last for 60K with a tolerance, oh wait there was a time limit on that? It made it 59k miles.

View attachment 15002

Ok so the last X timing belt I did change was in the early 1980s so this was pretty much starting over. Thanks to the excellent guide available here on the XWeb I was able to do the job in relatively short order. A few stumbles as someone had painted a false dot onto the flywheel where TDC is but 180 out, bastidge.

I did find an interesting thing not noted in the directions, there is a screw on the body of the distributor that is right under #4 distributor cap post. Point the rotor directly at the screw and when you install the belt your car will actually start on the first tap. Which it did.

Pics as it was set up

I will check the timing to be sure but it started on the first try without any further manipulation. Yay.

 

[carl]

Same thing I found on a friend's spider. His car would not start and he said the cams were not turning while turning over the motor. We thought he was just not looking at things right but sure enough he had teeth missing on the timing belt down at the crank end.

In your case....when was that belt replaced, last century?

 

[kmead]

I believe the timing belt was OE from original manufacture. So see the second line of the post a one up from yours

It took me a couple of looks at it to realize the cam was not turning. Working by myself I marked the cam and belt, first time it did move a bit and I was like, odd that it stopped in nearly the same place, then the next time it was in the same place so, there it was.

I was also prepared to replace the pickup module in the distributor with a NOS part but it wasn’t needed. I did order from a few different sellers a part which one seller pretested defective so they didn’t ship it and the other shipped the part which when I tested it was defective. Odd thing, they offered a partial refund on the part initially and I was like, you sent a defective part and I need to pay for part of it?

FYI in the final fitting the arrows on the belt are in the correct direction unlike an early fitting which appears in one pic.