Hemmings slaps the X again...

[Greg (in Conn)]

:doh:
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
FEATURED IN THIS MONTH'S ISSUE
Import Stock Exchange
1991-'95 Toyota MR2
When thinking about reliable, affordable, two-seat, mid-engine transportation, the list is short. Fiat X1/9? No, we said reliable. Ferraris are largely out of the affordable end of things, even two or three decades after they were new.

1991-'95 Toyota MR2
Hemmings Motor News - SEPTEMBER 1, 2010 - BY WORDS AND PHOTOGRAPHY BY JEFF KOCH


Toyota's second-generation sportster is more affordable than ever
When thinking about reliable, affordable, two-seat, mid-engine transportation, the list is short. Fiat X1/9? No, we said reliable. Ferraris are largely out of the affordable end of things, even two or three decades after they were new.

For many, the Toyota MR2 scratched an itch that few other cars could reach. Affordable enough when new, these cars have depreciated in typical used-car fashion, and are still on the downward part of the curve. Today, excellent examples can be had for under $10,000, while $5,000 should buy you a nice driver. We've seen beaters for sale for $2,000 and less as well.

This article originally appeared in the SEPTEMBER 1, 2010 issue of Hemmings Motor News.

 

[syata]

Opinions

Everyone is entitled to their opinion. Just like to know on what basis the writer said our Xs are not reliable. I have had a 1980 X1/9 from 1985-1991 with no problems and no break downs. I never had to have that car towed either.

I recently bought a 1986 Bertone (X1/9) and am enjoying my 43 mile one way daily commute. Oh, I am getting 34 MPG and loving it.

They key is regular maintenance and to take care of the little symptoms when you notice them.

Stephen :thumbsup:

 

[Greg (in Conn)]

notice

Notice he convenienty left off design and styling as one of the criterion

 

[Rupunzell]

No surprise... And, email sent to Jeff.. Now the fun begins with the folks at Hemmings...... Again..

They are entitled to their "opinion", but the not reliable statement is not based on FACT..

The folks at Hemmings are really "ye ole" Brit car fans. Look at the cars their staff owns and who advertises in this rag.. One of these days, the rear wheel is going to fly off that Spitfire and that Rover will leave them stranded again.. and they continue to put up with it. Oh, anyone see that image of the Spitfire hand brake cable and notice the frame is completely brown with rust (imagine what the rust is like inside the frame ralls) .. yet they will not admit these ole Brit cars rust and yell that all FIATs rust and are un-reliable.

It looks like Hemmings is going to duke it out with Classic Motorsports to see who can grab the larger share of Brit car readership. Just l**K at all the Brit car supplier ads in these magazines..

"Not gonna bit the hand that feed them."


Bernice

:doh:
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
FEATURED IN THIS MONTH'S ISSUE
Import Stock Exchange
1991-'95 Toyota MR2
When thinking about reliable, affordable, two-seat, mid-engine transportation, the list is short. Fiat X1/9? No, we said reliable. Ferraris are largely out of the affordable end of things, even two or three decades after they were new.

1991-'95 Toyota MR2
Hemmings Motor News - SEPTEMBER 1, 2010 - BY WORDS AND PHOTOGRAPHY BY JEFF KOCH

This article originally appeared in the SEPTEMBER 1, 2010 issue of Hemmings Motor News.

 

[abarth2litre]

I saw that

yet the editors had just given the X "Best Italian Car Award" at the Sat. event of their annual Concourse d' Elegance, over Ferrari's etc.
go fig.?:hmm:
Also I think Motor Trend (sensing the trend) is launching a classic car mag to compete with Sports and Exotic.
And Greg I know I invited you to meet us at F40 Motosports Oct 3 rd but ..we are gunna wait untill spring to meet Wayne.

 

[Jim W]

:doh:
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
FEATURED IN THIS MONTH'S ISSUE
Import Stock Exchange
1991-'95 Toyota MR2
When thinking about reliable, affordable, two-seat, mid-engine transportation, the list is short. Fiat X1/9? No, we said reliable. Ferraris are largely out of the affordable end of things, even two or three decades after they were new.

1991-'95 Toyota MR2

Well... If they're talking purely about reliability then I can find nothing wrong with the statement... a Toyota will be more reliable than an X1/9. I really don't think anyone can dispute that.

However, would I buy a '91 to '95 MR2... nope. I just don't find them all that interesting. ...but I've owned 3 Xs...

 

[Jim W]

The folks at Hemmings are really "ye ole" Brit car fans. Look at the cars their staff owns and who advertises in this rag.. One of these days, the rear wheel is going to fly off that Spitfire and that Rover will leave them stranded again.. and they continue to put up with it. Oh, anyone see that image of the Spitfire hand brake cable and notice the frame is completely brown with rust (imagine what the rust is like inside the frame ralls) .. yet they will not admit these ole Brit cars rust and yell that all FIATs rust and are un-reliable.

Bernice, you crack me up... if nothing else, you're consistent... wrong, but consistent.

No one makes more fun of British cars and the British car industry than British car owners... Trust me on this... I hang out with a bunch of them and I own a few myself.

 

[Eastep]

Everyone seems to forget the stigma associated with Fiat cars. Other then bad memories or remembered horror stories told second hand, largely Fiat (and the X1/9) have been forgotten. All the while EVERYONE remembers the 'cute lil' Triumphs and MG's and the mini, and forgets the fact that most British sports/ cars of that period were very unreliable, made from old truck and tractor parts that were obsolete at the time of construction, they were largely under powered and were made from the same flimsy and rust prone steel that Fiats were made from (along with just about every other car of the era ). Where things start to differ is that MG and Triumph were never publicly called out for these problems like Fiat, and this is why people only remember the good about little Brit cars and only the bad about Fiat cars. I personally LOVE the fact our car gets trashed all the time. In fact I hope it never changes. If it wasn't for the fact that the X1/9 gets poor reviews from biased magazine writers and others, the cost of our cars would sky-rocket along with parts and general ownership. Lets face it we all know our cars are better then most offerings from the Brits. Ours are styled better, have better performance per liter, are better engineered with cutting edge technology (at the time). So lets let everyone dog us and our cars and keep our cars to ourselves and keep spanking Brit cars at the track and enjoying the low cost to fun factor of our cars. I think part of the reason so many British car fans make such a big stink over the X1/9 is because they know if the truth gets out, that people will finally see how things really are and just how crappy Brit cars are.

 

[Jim W]

I think part of the reason so many British car fans make such a big stink over the X1/9 is because they know if the truth gets out, that people will finally see how things really are and just how crappy Brit cars are.

What??

I don't know of one British car fan that "makes such a big stink" over the X1/9... and I was just with 700-800 of them at "British Invasion" in Stowe, VT. For the most part, most traditional British car fans simply don't have much interest in the X because its... well... too "modern". They don't care that an X is more technically sophisticated and will out-handle their 'B or Sprite or TR4... that's not what's important too them.

Just as a new stock Miata (hell, a ten year old one) is more technically sophisticated and will run circles around my stock X1/9... ...but I have no interest in buying a Miata...

 

[Rupunzell]

Errr.... That can be disputed.. The MR2 has not proven to be a reliable LeMons racer, they have many of the same problems that are common most any car that get's run at a endurance race.

They over heat, grenade engines and etc... I have lots of images of grenaded MR2 bits from LeMons.. This is hard proof that MR2's are not more reliable or "un-bustiable" than believed. Next LeMons race, I'll send you some dead MR2 bits as more evidence they grenade.

Toyota centered their ad campaign and marketing around reliability..tell that often enough to the ignorant public and they will believe it and turn it into fact..... Just like Pennsylvania grade crude oil is the best oil for your car...

It takes about 70+ years for most car myths to die..

Bernice

Well... If they're talking purely about reliability then I can find nothing wrong with the statement... a Toyota will be more reliable than an X1/9. I really don't think anyone can dispute that.

However, would I buy a '91 to '95 MR2... nope. I just don't find them all that interesting. ...but I've owned 3 Xs...

 

[Rupunzell]

Well,,,, Wrong is an Opinion.. I think this image from the Moss catalog sums up the Brit sports car fantasy..

I'll leave it at that :hug:
Bernice

Bernice, you crack me up... if nothing else, you're consistent... wrong, but consistent.

No one makes more fun of British cars and the British car industry than British car owners... Trust me on this... I hang out with a bunch of them and I own a few myself.

 

[Jim W]

Errr.... That can be disputed.. The MR2 has not proven to be a reliable LeMons racer, they have many of the same problems that are common most any car that get's run at a endurance race.

In a racing environment you may well be right... however, in a "daily driver" role (which is what I believe we're talking about here) there are few car brands with a reliability record better than Toyota.

(I don't own a Toyota... never have...)

 

[Rupunzell]

Problem with this.. It's not so good for the future of the X and many similar cars in the same position.

See, if the perceived value of a car is low, then there will be next to no incentive for the aftermarket folks to produce stuff for the car and worst, the cars get crushed for the most minor problems..

I once had a guy off the street tell me (after I just parked the X) that he owned an X back in the day, used it as a daily driver, great fun, reliable and cheap to keep... until the clutch died.. he junked the car rather than putting clutch in it.

There are many examples of this.. So, to believe the depressed values for the X is a good thing, the facts and market reality don't support this.

If the market value of the X became what is should be.. say 20K for a nice example and no less than 5K for a reasonable one.. The X might have a chance for survival in the future "classic" car market, at the values it is now, it's only a matter of time before most all of them will be gone and forgotten.

Just take a look at the Moss Motors catalog, just about any part can be had for that Brit special.. at a price, but that part can be had as needed.

Tinkering with market values is one of the things automotive journalist do and engage in, this is the power they hold over car brands.

And, look at Harley Davidson. They were selling those choppers without end until now. They have basically sold one to every middle age guy who wanted to re-live that time in their life and now their sales are in a serious slump.. The younger generation could care less about choppers.. In contrast, Ducati seems to be doing fine, even Triumph motorcycles is doing fine.. Gotta ask why.

Bernice

I personally LOVE the fact our car gets trashed all the time. In fact I hope it never changes. If it wasn't for the fact that the X1/9 gets poor reviews from biased magazine writers and others, the cost of our cars would sky-rocket along with parts and general ownership.

 

[Rupunzell]

Even that is debatable..

I know Gen one Saturn owners who have well over 200k miles on their cars, then we have Honda, Subaru, FORD and others that have proven to be equally durable and reliable as Toyota..

It's all a matter of perception and, wanting to believe what wants to believe, and is told to believe..by the media. Just like politics.


Bernice

In a racing environment you may well be right... however, in a "daily driver" role (which is what I believe we're talking about here) there are few car brands with a reliability record better than Toyota.

(I don't own a Toyota... never have... I think they're boring)

 

[Jim W]

Well,,,, Wrong is an Opinion.. I think this image from the Moss catalog sums up the Brit sports car fantasy..
[

:laugh::laugh:
You are absolutely correct!!

...and what is so wrong with that... just last weekend I saw a guy bombing around in his vintage Allard J2X in just that garb. It was priceless.

Also got up-close and personal with your buddy - Tim Studdard's - :wink2: Group 44 GT6+... as it was out on the show field at Stowe... whose rebuild has been running in installments in one of your favorite magazines :wink2:

Just having fun Bernice....

:laugh::laugh:

 

[Mazinger]

I do own Toyotas

I have 2 85 Celicas, an 06 Scion Xa and a First gen Odyssey. Never had I had any rust issues, reverse gears going out, electrical issues of any kind (these are the things people remember about FIAT). In fact I've done nothing to these cars other than to change the oil every 7500 miles as the manual calls for, and it comes out as clean as the first oil change. I've worked on all makes and can confidently say that the engineering of Hondas and Toyotas far exceeds that of any other make regardless of price. All that been said....The X1/9s are the most fun cars I've ever driven and find the injected ones extremely reliable.

 

[bill]

Errr.... That can be disputed.. The MR2 has not proven to be a reliable LeMons racer, they have many of the same problems that are common most any car that get's run at a endurance race.

They over heat, grenade engines and etc... I have lots of images of grenaded MR2 bits from LeMons.. This is hard proof that MR2's are not more reliable or "un-bustiable" than believed. Next LeMons race, I'll send you some dead MR2 bits as more evidence they grenade.

Toyota centered their ad campaign and marketing around reliability..tell that often enough to the ignorant public and they will believe it and turn it into fact..... Just like Pennsylvania grade crude oil is the best oil for your car...

It takes about 70+ years for most car myths to die..

Bernice

I agree and the mr2 was not a real sturdy chassis i knew somebody who had one. It would have a hard time holding up, that's a tough race. It's a Japanese fiero. But I think the wrong people ended up with the x. The x1/9 has always been a drivers car and it wound up in the wrong hands most of the time and neglected.

 

[ryan]

I have 2 85 Celicas, an 06 Scion Xa and a First gen Odyssey. Never had I had any rust issues, reverse gears going out, electrical issues of any kind (these are the things people remember about FIAT). In fact I've done nothing to these cars other than to change the oil every 7500 miles as the manual calls for, and it comes out as clean as the first oil change. I've worked on all makes and can confidently say that the engineering of Hondas and Toyotas far exceeds that of any other make regardless of price. All that been said....The X1/9s are the most fun cars I've ever driven and find the injected ones extremely reliable.

Ok, first off, it isn't fair to compare a mid-2000's Scion xA or mid-1990s Honda Odyssey's corrosion protection, electrical systems, etc. to Fiats that were designed on the order of 40 years ago (hey, that is exactly what the US media does! :hmm

Regarding engineering -- engineering comes in many shapes and forms. I assume you are referring to Honda/Toyota design for reliability. I'd say in the mid-80s they were ahead of other companies in this regard. Far exceeds though? I don't know. Hydraulic lifters are significantly less maintenance for the everyday consumers, but does that mean an engine using valves that must be adjusted is an inferior piece of engineering?

The answer is no, and it is because engineering of an automobile doesn't only entail design for reliability. Anyway, the *yawn* factor of Honda/Toyota cars does tell me the engineers were probably directed to focus heavily on development of generally low-maintenance products. However, I think in many cases this compromised other engineering areas.

If you look at the varied technical innovations of our X1/9s, even though they were engineered circa 1970, the car utterly blew Honda/Toyota cars (of the 80s) out of the water in many technical areas. You just have to look at the packaging, suspension design, chassis design -- or the most difficult quality to engineer -- a package that makes a driving enthusiast feel GOOD.

I really see no shame in calling the MR2 a more "reliable" car than the X1/9. It benefited a lot by being A) developed a good decade after the X1/9 and B) was a copy of an existing design (i.e., the X1/9). If Toyota hadn't made this car more reliable, they'd be pretty darn daft. :mallet:

 

[Kevin B (Asheville NC)]

I believe you will find that the Mk1 MR2 has WAY more in common with the x than any other chassis.

<posted by someone who has raced a Mk1 MR2 in SCCA ITB>

 

[Kevin B (Asheville NC)]

Wait tillBernice see's the lates Jalopnik discussion of Corporate Fiat