High Speed Shake & Rear Susp. Alignment

I have been checking in on this thread from time to time and am surprised that the issue hasn't been found and fixed. I should note that the X1/9 is susceptible to front end vibration at about 65 mph. I have noticed this on a couple of my cars and a few others. This has typically been tied to a combination of worn components and out of round/balance front tires.

Its important to remember a few fundamentals here: 1) all mechanical assemblies have a resonating frequency. 2) Such problems are seldom one single issue but an intersection of two or more smaller issues. 3) when you can't identify a problem, take a step back, reconsider the situation and start from the basics and move up from there.

When ever I get stumped by such things, like an engine that won't start, I always go back to the basics and start from there. Fuel, air, spark, timing, compression. If I have all of these, in the appropriate quantities, the engine will run. So in this case what causes a speed related vibration. And that answer is an un-dampened oscillation. So we have two problems; 1) something that has more motion than is normal, and 2) that motion is undampened.

So continuing down the diagnostic path using the above, the first step is to find the source of the excess motion. To find that, check everything that turns with the road wheels: Tires, wheels, hubs, brake rotors and wheel bearings. Have the wheels/tires spun up on a wheel balancer and check the runout and balance. Assuming they are good, then check the wheel to hub mounting surface and ensure the wheel is fitting flush to the hub. Next, check the hubs for runout. That's pretty easy with a dial indicator mounted to the hub carrier. Also check that the wheel bearings are tight and smooth. Finally, check the brake rotors for runout.

Next is to find what is permitting the harmonic excess motion. Start at the suspension mounts and inspect for cracks and worn mounting holes. More than once I have found a cracked suspension mount on a track car that caused me all kinds of headaches. Next the bushings, control arms and ball joints. And don't forget the tie rod ends and toe adjusters. Also check that the struts are in good condition and that the inserts aren't loose in the housing.

Finally, the alignment. Assuming you have done all of the above, I would suggest investing in taking it to a competent shop and having them put in on a commercial rack. I'll be the first to tell you I don't trust most alignment shops or techs and do all of my own alignments on everything but my wife's SUV and my truck. And those go to a friends shop where I can observe the tech's work. Two reasons for taking it to a shop. First, its a way to verify your own measurements and you can get a caster measurement. Unless you are pretty good at doing your own alignments, and have the tools to do it, you won't be able to get a caster measurement at home.

The reason I noted caster is an interesting one. Too little caster can cause exactly your problem. While I have never experienced an X having a steering vibration resulting from to little caster, its a major problem in other vehicles. Jeeps are notorious for the problem and its not an uncommon problem in late model Ford SuperDuty 4wd pickups. The cause is a combination of a worn track bar, or steering stabilizer, and a lower than normal caster angle. The factory caster spec is 2.8 to 3.3 degrees on the Ford truck. That's not a lot (an X1/9 is about 7 or 8). In the case of the Ford, a huge percentage of owners either install "lift" or "level" kits. Either one raises the front of the truck and because the front suspension is simple (reverse) trailing arm setup, simply raising the front ride height reclocks the front axle and reduces caster. Its not uncommon for caster to end up at less than 2 degrees. This is problematic as its caster that provides for the steering self-centering and therefore the steering stability. So reducing caster significantly will reduce the natural geometry function of stabilizing the steering. Reduce it enough and the lack of caster can't prevent the natural oscillating frequency from being triggered by the simplest of things. A slightly out of balance or out of round tire. Or, in the case of the big Ford pickups, crossing a bridge/pavement seam at 60 mph. In the case of the big Ford truck or Jeep, its compounded by the lift/level kit and the almost universal addition of much larger (read increased mass and inertia) wheels and tires on lifted trucks.

All of that to explain that if you replaced the radius arm bushings you really need to ensure that the caster is correct. Its entirely possible that the new bushings reduced the caster and that is the primary cause of the problem.
 
Thanks for the long write up Steve. Part of the reason this is still an open issue is my fault entirely. While i live in the middle of a concrete jungle, I seldom have a need to travel on anything more than 35 mph speed limits. This is very depressing. However that means I can drive the X around for almost anything i need without any issues whatsoever. Secondly I have only been working on the X 1 or 2 days a week lately, oftentimes when a fair amount of driving on the scenic lakeside streets. Summer coming to an end might be greatly reducing my desire to get out in the garage each night. With that weeks tend to fly by with little progress towards this issue.

As to your troubleshooting guide... Almost everything rubber and suspension is new. I went through and replaced every bushing I could. I have a whole new steering rack and rods, refurbished rack by MWB. I have brand new dampers all 4 corners, simple KYBs, with new pivot bears in the front. I have 6 new federal tires with at least 1 out of round that I have removed. The others seem fairly round according to the simple jack and rotate and drag test. Also I have played with the front wheels a lot in the last few weeks and haven't noticed any more excess play in the BJs or bearings but i will 100% check that this weekend as I rotate the tires around and record the corners with my go-pro.

I need to find a shop that I can trust for a good tire balance. I might have a connection through work but have not heard back yet. So far 2 of 2 local shops have not given me any confidence whatsoever. I am also looking for a good shop that can do an alignment like you said. If I had my old job this would be super easy with one of the best able to help me to do the alignment on a Hunter any day after work as I pleased.

I need to buy a dial indicator. Also, I saw posted somewhere on here, how to measure caster on your own. I believe the tools needed were a good angle gage for lack of a better name. Is that it and a fancy formula?
 
I don't know if it still exists, but there used to be a tire balancing machine that actually shaved off any high spots on the tires as it went through the balancing process - assuring they were perfectly round as well as balanced. Another approach was a balancing machine that did the job while the wheels were still on the vehicle - to account for any potential imbalances in other rotating components. I never tried either method so no idea how much difference they made. But if the few options in 13" tires leaves poor choices in terms of quality (e.g. out of round, or badly unbalanced) then maybe something like either of these might help.
 
Machines for shaving tires were not all that rare a few decades ago. They were used for getting tires round as well as removing tread for racers. When I lived in NY, I recall going to a tire store with my Dad to get snow tires for his car. They shaved the tires round and balanced them.

The first tire balance I had done on my X when it was new used a machine that balanced the wheels on the car. The guy at the shop said he could get a better balance using that approach since all the rotating parts were in play when they did it. They did work on many sports cars and even sponsored a race car at one point. Forty six years later, they are still there. They were the first ones to put a proper alignment on the car as well. The early cars typically shipped with way too much toe in, front and rear, so even if you did not drive hard, the tires could easily wear out in well under 10K. I recall the tech sticking two sacks of concrete in the driver seat to simulate me before he got to work. He reduced both the front and rear toe in substantially and the next set of tires lasted more than twice as long.
 
Tire shaving machines were first developed for truing recaps (if you are old enough to know what those are). At some point somebody figured out that shaving a treaded tire improved its dry weather, on track, performance and those machines popped up in race shops and on race tire service trucks.

Before there were "electronic" spin balancers, tire shops used either an old fashioned bubble balancer or a dynamic, 'on the car' spin balancer. Today, given the sophistication of some vehicles, and their sensitivity to tire balance, there is now what is known as "road force balancing". https://danthetireman.com/blog/article/what-is-road-force-balance

I would recommend swapping the wheels/tires front to rear and test driving the car to see if there is any change. Its an easy thing to do and will provide immediate feedback as to where the problem lies.

I could write a couple of pages on the crazy things that we have found with racing tires that caused all manner of headaches.
 
"road force balancing"
The last couple of years or so those machines have been featured in the wheel/tire section at SEMA. For some reason my intuition seems to think they are only the latest fad, just like the others we've been discussing. That industry likes to introduce new machines every few years and always claims it to be the last technology we will ever need. And they are extremely expensive machines. I feel for the tire shop guys. Same with alignment equipment. The latest seems to be a large apparatus that you drive the vehicle past as scanners detect all of the settings and tells the tech what to change, without ever touching the car. The whole alignment process only takes a couple of minutes start to finish. I get a kick out of their marketing strategy. They tell the shop owners that with the latest machines they will capture all of the business in their region by advertising the technology. Like the public knows the difference or even cares.
 
Maybe they are back in vogue because the cheap Chinese tires are so badly out of round that they need to be trued on these machines. Just like the old recaps were. :rolleyes:

The auto service industry equipment makers are always looking for ways to sell new, more expensive, machines. I still own an $8000 Snap-On scanner system that I bought when I still owned my AAMCO transmission businesses. It has been useful but I can now do all of the same things with a $5 phone app and a $12 blue tooth OBDII adapter. Certainly the specialty systems have their place for manufacturer specific diagnostics on newer cars but they industry has to keep moving technology forward.

As for the big machines the best example of the scam that some of these machines are is the 'transmission flush' machines. These things sell for $5000 and up and I can duplicate their function 100% with a bucket, a length of hose and a funnel. That's about $5 worth of stuff. Worse, they upsell the service as a "flush" when there is absolutely _NO_ flush function what so ever.
 
Worse, they upsell the service as a "flush" when there is absolutely _NO_ flush function what so ever.
Going off topic, sorry, but since it was brought up...
I've always wondered about these automatic-trans flush machines. I've been told by at least one machine manufacturer it actually pushes the new fluid in the opposite direction from normal, effectively "backflushing". They say that cleans out the filter in the process. I'm not so sure about any of this, for several reasons. I agree it is good to replace as much of the oil fluid as possible, such as from the torque converter, but the filter really should be replaced as well. However if they are backflushing it (to "clean" the filter) then wouldn't that allow a lot of debris to get back into the system in the process? While it sounds like a great idea on the surface, the whole thing seems rather suspect to me.
We can continue this in the NFC area if prefered.
 
Not possible to push the fluid backwards through the system. There are check valves and such plus the system isn't designed to flow fluid backwards.
Its important to note that every single one of these systems requires that the engine be running. This is because it uses the transmission's own pump to pump the fluid out. The system simply sits in the cooler line collects the fluid coming out and pumps replacement fluid back in. (note; if the engine is running it can't "backflush" the system because it would be fighting the transmission pump's fluid flow.)

You can do the same as the machine yourself at home by routing the output line from the transmission into a bucket, start the engine, and let the transmission's pump pump fluid into the bucket while you pour fresh fluid into the filler. I do this on my own vehicles and it works fine.

Also, the myth about changing the filter: The transmission filter is really simply a fine screen. It really doesn't filter the way a traditional engine oil filter does. Remember, there is no contaminates from combustion to be filtered. If the filter gets stopped up what is stopping it up is debris, either clutch material from worn clutches or metal from failing hard components. If there is enough material to clog the filter, changing the filter isn't going to do anything, the transmission is in the course of failing.

I used to tow my X1/9 with a full size Ford van. I put 342K miles on this van, most of which was towing racecars. I had a shop change the fluid and filter about a year after I bought it. Within a year, I bought an AAMCO Center and did the fluid changes there after that. It probably had 160K miles on the 1st replacement filter when I had the transmission rebuilt at 240K miles. The transmission worked fine but it was the last week I owned the shop and we had taken in no business for a week, had plenty of time, a full crew (including a Master Tech) and all of the parts it would need. So I rebuilt it figuring I might as well. The filter was clear and not in need of changing.

mr2ontrailer02.jpg
 
Makes perfect sense to me that the fluid cannot be run backward through the trans. But that was what I was told by a rep from one of the flush machine makers when I asked about the filter. That's one of the reasons I said this whole concept sounds suspect to me. However my local Ford dealer uses a flush machine to service auto trans in their service dept, including routine intervals under the warranty period (which according to them keeps it within the warranty requirements). While it was still under coverage I let them do it on my "shop truck", which is occasionally used to tow. Now that it's no longer warrantied I will pull the pan and inspect things and replace the filter for the first time (these have what looks like a 'paper' filter of some type). I'm thinking to get a more thorough fluid change (short of doing the flush) is to add a drain plug to the pan and just change it more frequently.
 
Well, the manufacturers have all pretty much spec'ed "flushes" in part due to the customer perception and the dealer can charge a premium for the service.

My previous truck, a Ford F350 Diesel equipped with Ford's heavy truck transmission, and my current truck, a '17 F250 Diesel, also with Ford's heavy truck transmission, both had external spin-on filters that have a paper element. Half ton and smaller pickups, automobiles and SUVs all have very similar transmissions with the simple polymer screen filters. Many now are non-serviceable and few even have dip sticks to permit the owner to check the fluid level and condition.
 
I added an external trans oil cooler (and guage) to the motorhome that I used to tow my racecar. When I did that I also added an engine type screw on external oil filter. Works fine.
(Sorry for the thread drift!)
 
I added an external trans oil cooler (and guage)
I'd like to get some temp readings for my truck's trans when towing to see if it needs a larger cooler but I don't have a gauge on it. It came stock with a separate 'stacked plate' type trans cooler (not part of the engine radiator). When I bought it I wanted the "towing package" which included a larger version of the same cooler, but wound up not getting that package unfortunately. So I keep wondering if the stock cooler isn't sufficient.
Again, sorry we have gone so far off topic.
 
I'd like to get some temp readings for my truck's trans when towing to see if it needs a larger cooler but I don't have a gauge on it. It came stock with a separate 'stacked plate' type trans cooler (not part of the engine radiator). When I bought it I wanted the "towing package" which included a larger version of the same cooler, but wound up not getting that package unfortunately. So I keep wondering if the stock cooler isn't sufficient.
Again, sorry we have gone so far off topic.

Jeff, if you didn't get the tow package cooler you could probably use one but that's somewhat related to how much you tow and in what conditions. A trans temp gauge is a good idea on any vehicle that tows regularly. The van (above pic) that I towed with had a factory tow package cooler that worked great but I seen standard, half ton pickups, that don't have much cooling capacity in stock trim. If your towing in the desert south west and with considerable load, I would recommend a gauge.

Towing packages have come a long way in the last 20 years. My two Ford vans, my previous F350 and my current F250 all had factory coolers that did the job find. But things are changing. One of Ford's senior powertrain engineers is a good friend of mine. She (yep) was the project manager on the Shelby GT500 paddle shift transmission. My new truck has a thermostat in the transmission cooler circuit to prevent the transmission from running too cold. In normal driving (unloaded) the transmission runs at about 200 degrees, regulated there by the t-stat). When towing it only runs slightly higher maxing out at about 210 with a peak at about 220 towing up longer, steeper grades, on hot summer days, at speed. This is well above what was considered the normal operating range only a few years ago. But Ford says the higher temperatures improve efficiency and the transmission and its fluid are designed for it.
 
I really haven't done any towing in the last few years, it was mostly when the truck was still under warranty. But it might happen again one day.

I've read that some trans have a temp sensor built in that can be accessed through the OBD diagnostic port. However I doubt this one does, I think that's mostly the big units behind diesels, etc.. I have one of the OBD bluetooth adapters to read things on a phone app, but I've never tried it yet.

The "towing package" had an identical type and size of trans cooler except it had a few more 'plates' (maybe 30-40% taller?). So about that much extra capacity, otherwise the same. If I replace the stock one (non-towing package) I'd consider a aftermarket one instead of the larger factory item.
 
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When I added the external cooler I installed the gauge so that it reads the temp of the fluid going out of the trans. You can see a significant increase in temp when there is a heavy load such as going up a hill. I installed the external oil to air cooler in front of the radiator, from that I plumbed it into the stock cooler in the bottom of the radiator. The thinking was that the oil temp wouldn't be excessively cooled by the external cooler that way.
 
Jeff, if its a relatively late model, American, truck there is indeed likely a sensor and that data should be available via the OBDII port.

I use the Torque Pro phone app regularly with a bluetooth OBDII adapter. It works well as both a code reader and data display. I used it on my previous truck to monitor engine and transmission oil temperatures. The new truck displays both on the standard dash. I will bet you can monitor the transmission temperatures easily on your truck.
 
Serious thread drift.... but while we are on the subject of keeping transmissions cool....

Lemons 24 hour racer... Steve, what are your thought on using a transmission cooler on the Fiat transaxle?

I've used bilge pumps in the past to circulate oil for differentials / coolers in high powered rally cars, and was thinking a simple auto trans cooler would do enough to keep trans temps where the oil is most effective and was holping to feed the return oil into the channel / groove in the casing that assists the lubrication of 3/4 gearsets.

One issue is bilge pumps are only good for about 30 mins running, which was OK for special stages, so I was thinking it may need to be thermatically controlled in some way as well so it perhaps turns on / off when needed... I have an inline thermostat for an engine oil cooler thats a simple slip on hose design (rather than JIC fittings) and was thinking of plumbing that inline... race plan is 75 min stints / driver change, so possibly educate the drivers and have it manually controlled to se when needed.

any thoughts? I'm not wanting to be fancy for the sake of it, but feel it might be cheap insurance to help the trans survive endurance racing.

SteveC
 
Hi Steve, never thought of using bilge pumps. I would assume the heat would kill a bilge pump if nothing else.

I learned much about oil pumps and coolers during my 5 year stint in NASCAR. Differentials take a real beating on oval track cars. So pumps and coolers for the rear ends were an important thing to ensure you got right. It was working with these systems that taught me much about oil coolers and pumps.

The coolers I put on most any road race car, X1/9's included, used the proven Tilton pumps and simple B&M coolers. I liked the B&M because they were more resistant to damage by stones than the simple, passenger car, transmission cooler (of which Hayden is the best known). The B&M cooler uses the standard AN fittings.

There are other, similar, pumps but these are the line of pumps I preferred. Tilton makes good stuff. I have run their clutches and pedals in my own cars. https://tiltonracing.com/product/cooler-pumps/

B&M Coolers (now owned by Holley): https://www.holley.com/products/drivetrain/transmission_coolers/supercooler_transmission_coolers/

Hayden makes a wide range of coolers but these are the type I was referring to: https://www.haydenauto.com/en/produ...rs/hayden-transmission-oil-coolers/ultra-cool

For an endurance racer I would think a pump/cooler would be critical. Heat will kill the SOHC transaxle quickly. Of course heat is a product of energy and if the car doesn't produce much power it will generate less heat in the transmission. A stock 1300/1500 might survive a 24 hour race but I wouldn't bet my entry on it. I would certainly have a spare transaxle and a plan to change it if the original failed.

Given this is a Lemons car I would look to see if there were any cheaper options for a pump. You can buy Hayden trans cooler for $40USD here in the US. If you can find a cheaper pump that can live with 200 degree oil that would be ideal.
 
Thanks for the reply Steve,

yes the bilge pump is the "cheap" option given the lemons budget constraints, these chinese made units are bronze pump body and bronze gears, rated at 14/l/min free flow. The English made bilge pumps I've used in the past were quite noisy but lasted several seasons of rallying , albeit intermittant use ... but not 24 hours worth and not chinese made and a quarter of the price, but these do rate for fluids up to 60 degrees celcius. I recommended one of these pumps / coolers to a friend for his dirt track oval car and a very similar setup has been on that car for a couple of years without issues

Suction hose size is very important and where most people get it wrong, so at the transmission drain plug (M22 x 1.5) I have an AN12 male fitting, coupled with a female AN12 full flow 90 bend to AN12 hose into the pump mounted on the rear crossmember (for other readers AN12 is 11/16 inch ID hose).

From the pump it's 3/8 push on ID hose to a Davies Craig (very well known Australian brand) 6 row 9 x 7.5 inch trans cooler that's rated to 12,000 BTU /hour, it only has 3/8 sized inlet / outlet, but the rest of the tubing is 1/2" to reduce flow restricton. Hayden and Davies-Craig could well be the same cooler as they even use the same part number designations and both call them "ultra-cool", I've gone for the 404 and yes they are very well priced at about $65aud including delivery, weighs under 1kg.

I'm thinking trans cooler will mount inside at the rear where the number plate would be, hoses very short returning to a 3/8 push on AN6/ 10 x 1.25 fitting screwed into the trans casing to feed as much oil as possible onto the gearset... the thru hole in the AN6 fitting is about 6mm, so should restrict the flow down to about 4 litres a minute... I'm heading towards a timer route and cycle the pump on / off at maybe 90 seconds. The oil thermostat opens fully at 84 celcius
s-l1600 (3).jpg

the whole setup (pump / cooler / fittings/hoses) under $150aud, I figure for that cost it's worth a try.... the thermostat is a SERCK from the UK, they make the oil coolers I like to use and this push on hose thermostat is one a friend wanted to fit to his Fiat and I wouldn't let him (too restrictive for an engine) and it's been sitting on my shelf gathering dust for 20 years, so I thoight I might as well use it, but I'm having second thoughts about using it now as i'm thinking it will be quite redundant...

SteveC
 
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