Keeping the Faith....

D

DuaneEstill

Banned User
For the last eleven years, the longest period of time in which I've not had a Fiat as a daily driver was about three months. I've always felt like the fundamental experience of Italian cars was the 'daily grind' of living with one every day, not just weekend warriors. I've learned so much and it's literally changed my life and I feel great about being an irrevrent traveler on the roads, the different, the out of the ordinary, but it's just normal and quite enjoyable and has a life of it's own. It's not done for any other reason than because I happen to like it. I have an X and a Spider, both run and drive fine.

After recently having to do a bunch of unexpected work on my Spider, changing out the pumpkin and redoing the brakes. And then still driving with creaks, no air, slow windows, listening for every acoustic variation in the drive train, wheels, etc. I'm sitting here going...."Wow...couldn't I just drive a normal modern car for a little while and fiddle with these things on the weekends." Or....if I'm going to exert this much effort into having and maintaing a unique car, get a Ferrari for that elevated driver experience.

It all started about two months ago when I drove a Honda S2000. This car is close to perfection. My biggest criticism was, practically non-existent driver feedback. Is this because I'm so used to Fiats or because this car is that good? The power and acceleration are unbelievable on that car, it goes to 9 grand, rides great, steers easy, automatic top, and is as reliable as a friggin Honda Accord. I've driven a Pontiac Solstice (??) turbo and even the turbo could not out accelerate the Honda. I was compelled to start looking and I've been on a few lots. Then boom, I get his with all this work to do just to maintain the same 'grass roots' experience. Then I get offered a fantastic deal on a 560 SL driven by an older lady with 78K miles and always garaged. I'm going..."Oh wow, it's got air!!"

I'm sitting here wondering if this whole purist thing has a down side to it. Like...at some point the law of diminishing marginal returns is going to kick in. I remember clear as a bell an older gentleman who drove an Alfa Guilia for years.....he loved it..but he'd have to prime to carbs every morning manually...like get gas on his hands dressed for business. But he did it. He goes and buys a BMW Z4 right after they came out....sold all his I-cars and said the Z was the best car he'd ever had.

Do you have to let go at some point. Or at least mitigate to a point where you have a little more balance?

Thanks for reading.
 
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Go ahead Duane...

Shoot yurself in the foot, cut off yur nose ta spite yur face... ditch the Fiat and buy some sort of appliance... Others have done it, why not you? If all your friends jumped off a cliff, would you?

Do ya ever read any of the other whining, sniveling, crying posts of those who did... and where are they now? Most have come crawling back... weeping about all the years that were wasted.

I think the GREATEST comment came from my (our) old friend Gilles, when he got a proverbial hair up his arse and went out and bought a Cayman. (He also bought one of the 5 or 6 STORED 1987 Bay Area X1/9's about 7 years ago... each had 61 miles on their clocks...)

Anyway, a few years back at Rudy's in Newport he brings his Cayman and insists after 14 glasses of wine... that I drive it! We finally head out to PCH and I launch it, but short shift it... cause I'm doin' over a 100 in third... and he's eggin' me on to go faster. Every single thing I THOUGHT, the car responded. It was like none other that I had driven. Close to PERFECTION in every arena.

Gilles is now pestering me to tell him what I think about HIS car and I do, slowly answering systematically, and briefly I say, it is PERFECT...

HE then says to me...

"BUT IT HAS NO SOUL, TONY... NOT LIKE THE FIAT~"

My sentiments exactly!
 
It's nice to have a reliable DD

It's nice to have a reliable vehicle with all the amenities. Something you don't have to worry about or tinker with.

My X is only driven in the summer now. It's nice that way. I look forward to driving it in the nice summer weather. I don't worry about rain water collecting in numerous places to rust.

There are now a few little projects that need to be done on it. I know that before the end of this month it'll be sitting in my shop until next year, and I can get those projects accomplished on it. No worries that I have to get it back together to get to work the next day.

My truck will deal with the rain, hail, ice, and snow. The heated seats will warm my butt on the cold mornings ahead. It will get me to work reliably, quietly, and comfortably....

... and by Spring, the reliable, quiet, comfortable, BORING truck will have me longing for a dry sunny day to get the X back outside for a few more months!
 
Well... its not like your fiats will take 50% if you buy something else. :rolleyes2:

If you want to get an S2k or any other car im sure no one will blame you.
 
Hmmm...

There's no way I'll get rid of the Fiats....that's not even a possibility. Well....when I find better examples I'd buy them, or better deals. I couldn't store them either, they've got to be driven or they die.

I remember Gilles.

The whole 'soul' thing is absolutely true.

Didn't mean to sound like I was whining....just really wondering out loud I guess.
 
Build your own S2000

Go ahead and put a VTEC motor in your X1/9. Old school classic styling with modern S2k like power. The sound of VTEC coming from the back is awesome and so is the acceleration and just all round driveability. Not to mention that the entire drive train is probably 10 - 15 years newer than your existing drivetrain. Just my .02
 
All I got fo you is:

When the wife and I decided to have kids, I had to get a 4 door to haul around said offspring, but could not give up having a car of character.

Hence, DD is last of Audi's turbo 5cyl's. The 1994 Audi S4, 2.2liter, 5cyl, 20 valve, turbo, 5spd manual, awd, monster putting over 400hp to the ground..... and weighing 2 tons.

Drive one of these, and you will view the Fiats as reliable. :huh2:

Both kids will be in booster seats by the end of the year and I will be shopping the 500 Abarth's when they hit showrooms....
 
I was Fiatless for around 25 years. I've owned most of the variants made since 72 and they were all great as what they were. About five years ago I picked up a 94 Miata because the draw of the Fiat wasn't strong enough. I can tell you this much about the Miata. It DOES have soul. It's the early barn door version, the NA in Miata jargon. I actually have an M Edition that had A/C, P/S, cruise and P/W. The A/C is rarely on, the P/S isn't noticible to me, the P/W suck because they are slow due to the cheesy way things are wired (Fiat?) but the car handles beautifully and is sporty as hell. It has adequate power, but won't smoke the tires, and without forced induction there's no way to improve the performance beyond a timing bump, but I love the car. I never experienced the Honda or the Toyota MR2 but my understanding is that they do lack some of what makes the NA so great. In fact the NB, the second gen, to a degree and the NC, the 3rd gen,to a much larger degree, lack the soul of the NA.

That said, I got my 7th Fiat and my 3rd X a month or so back and am going to embark on some version of resurrection to get her on the road. She won't replace the Mazda but she will supplement it. Since my DD is only 1/2 mile or so, the thrills only really happen on the weekends anyway.

Don't lose the faith. The Fiat will always have the tug but I do admit that not having to open the hood very often sure is a nice benefit.
 
Enjoying the Ride....

For me, it's been great these past few weeks of X ownership; the weather has been perfect for driving with the roof off. Driving the X with the roof on just highlights all the creaks, groans & vibrations that can be blissfully ignored otherwise :rolleyes2:

I haven't owned a truly finicky car since my MGB back in '81, and I have to say I don't miss that aspect when it comes to a daily driver.

I can't imagine using the Fiat, or any other high maintenance vehicle for daily driving, I've become accustomed to having things just work, and I don't own a new car, and don't expect I ever will. I'm really happy with my V70 wagon as a DD, and the Fiat for the fine weather. As already noted, this means I'm not under pressure to fix things on the spot. I've never actually owned two cars at the same time, it is a nice thing - I've been trying to persuade my wife for years that we need a occasional use vehicle!

The added benefits, again as noted by others, is that I enjoy the X for what it is, and then appreciate the performance of my modded Volvo after a few days without it.

Owning an X is made so much easier with resources like this!
 
My thoughts...

Owning any "Modern Classic" (like the chap on wheeler dealers would say) is a straight up love afair. Back in the 90's I tried to do the daily driver thing. I even went as far as to have my X as my fun car and my 78 131 as my daily. It worked and for the most part and was a blast but I also had a lot more time to tinker on the 131 to make sure it stayed my daily driver.

Bottom line most folks who have a fair amount of responsibilites (kids, travel for work etc) and own a Fiat will probably have to also own a "Honda" or something else reliable - maybe a fun car like the 2000 or like my Civic who knows. To do real basic stuff that iether you can't do or would NEVER want to do in your X - like fill it with bags of mortor for your bathroom resto :) you simply need something else.

I have no guilt
 
Fix all the differed maintained items that have not been attended to over the years on the X and it can easily be a very reliable daily driver.

I have owned numerous x1/9 over the years a daily drivers..with few problems.

As for those "creaks, groans & vibration" they could be coming from all those cheap plastic trim parts or cheesy bits used on the interior. If you judge an X by these failings, you will miss what is the heart and soul of the X and what has been designed and built into it's chassis and mechanicals which are great.

Bernice

lookforjoe said:
For me, it's been great these past few weeks of X ownership; the weather has been perfect for driving with the roof off. Driving the X with the roof on just highlights all the creaks, groans & vibrations that can be blissfully ignored otherwise :rolleyes2:

I haven't owned a truly finicky car since my MGB back in '81, and I have to say I don't miss that aspect when it comes to a daily driver.

I can't imagine using the Fiat, or any other high maintenance vehicle for daily driving, I've become accustomed to having things just work, and I don't own a new car, and don't expect I ever will. I'm really happy with my V70 wagon as a DD, and the Fiat for the fine weather. As already noted, this means I'm not under pressure to fix things on the spot. I've never actually owned two cars at the same time, it is a nice thing - I've been trying to persuade my wife for years that we need a occasional use vehicle!

The added benefits, again as noted by others, is that I enjoy the X for what it is, and then appreciate the performance of my modded Volvo after a few days without it.

Owning an X is made so much easier with resources like this!
Click to expand...
 
Just take your time and look around, lots of choices out there

In 2007, I had finally decided that I'd about run out the string on (i.e., retained any interest in) my '04 Civic Si as my "most of the week" commuter car. So I sold it to my son's friend and went out shopping.

Drove the S2000, nice car but less roomy than the X, or at least that's the way it felt to me. Drove a Solstice Turbo... fun drive, interior too cheap looking and absolutely NO ROOM for any luggage, even for a weekend getaway. Drove the Infiniti G35 coupe... nice car, but cost a little more than I wished to spend.

Looked at the 350Z... just the Base model, but they had it priced at $27K... roomy... more torque and power than the S2000... excellent fit and finish... assembled in Japan... not a convertible... pluses and minuses there.

Settled on the Z. Put 38K on it so far, no complaints... great car for all intents and purposes.

But not as much fun as my '81X.
 
HAHAHAHA...

I was hopin' I'd touch a nerve with something I said...

Yep... If he does nothing else in his miserable life, let Gilles serve as our example! HAHAHA!
 
Just for the friggin' record...

For over 10 years Black Tooth took me to work and back in LA traffic 27 miles each way... and only failed me ONCE with a fried ignition switch (lack of a BWM... way back when!) Those years of commuting attributed over 110,000 of he 166,000 miles on his clock.

I might also mention the compression is 145 across the board (CA low compression 1500) and the head has never been off.

Three clutches and three transmissions... and the rest have been wearable items.

My Toyotas and Hondas have been only sightly better, and like our friend's Miata, they may have some sort of soul, but nothing like the soul that this little guy possesses!
 
Oh, I'm not really complaining that much - I really like the car & the way it handles! I can isolate & fix the issues over time, so that's not really a problem, and can certainly be counted as minimal when the overall feel of the car is factored in :)

I was looking at the engine mounting yesterday when cleaning the starter connections, and the cradle mount is torn, so that's probably a good portion of the vibration I'm feeling.

I haven't owned a Fiat since my 850 coupe back in the late '70's, so I'm really enjoying the experience! :love:



Rupunzell said:
Fix all the differed maintained items that have not been attended to over the years on the X and it can easily be a very reliable daily driver.

I have owned numerous x1/9 over the years a daily drivers..with few problems.

As for those "creaks, groans & vibration" they could be coming from all those cheap plastic trim parts or cheesy bits used on the interior. If you judge an X by these failings, you will miss what is the heart and soul of the X and what has been designed and built into it's chassis and mechanicals which are great.

Bernice
Click to expand...
 
I hear ya

I believe that one can outgrow cars.
You can be into Xs for 20 years and at one point you realize that your needs and wants have shifted and that a luxury coupe is much better at what you want from a car by now.
I sometimes feel like that.
I also sometimes wonder why I am spending so much time and energy on the X, when I take my girlfriend's '93 Miata for a spin.
In those moments I feel like the Miata is just as much fun, w/o all the hassles. If not for the fact (as mentioned above) that you can't really make the Miata motor any sportier, I might fall for it.
But then every once in a while, I drive the X and all feels right and I would never part with it.

My advice, try out other cars, but don't sell the X just yet. Put it in storage for two years if you must, but don't sell it until you know you won't regret it.
 
Ulix said:
If not for the fact (as mentioned above) that you can't really make the Miata motor any sportier, I might fall for it.
Click to expand...

Who said that you can't make a miata motor sportier? People build up super fast Miatas all the time. I would even say that it is easier and cheaper then building an X motor. You can even buy kits to install 13b's or small block v8's.
 
Miata motor

Hi,

It was mentioned above in the thread and I have come to the coclusion myself from reading forums and GRM that the Miata motor just does not respond to traditional modifications as other motors do. You can throw a bunch of money at the motor and gain very little considering $ spent. GRM once buiilt up a car like that and IIRC the results weren't impressive.
A modern 1.8L TC sportscar motor should easily give 160 hp with few/cheap mods if any. It doesn't seem to be that way with the Miata.
Super-/Turbocharging seems to be the way to go with that motor.

160 hp would be enough for me if the engine pulls hard and likes to rev.
The Miata engine is fairly gutless down low and doesn't particularly like to rev either. Not what I would expect from an otherwise great car.
 
I wonder....

...if the Miata will be as fun to drive...when IT'S 30+ years old. Sometimes it bothers me a tad to hear people complaining about issues they are having with their exxes. Remember, a lot of our current co-workers and such weren't even born yet, when the last ones rolled off the assembly lines.
 
Ulix said:
Hi,

It was mentioned above in the thread and I have come to the coclusion myself from reading forums and GRM that the Miata motor just does not respond to traditional modifications as other motors do. You can throw a bunch of money at the motor and gain very little considering $ spent. GRM once buiilt up a car like that and IIRC the results weren't impressive.
A modern 1.8L TC sportscar motor should easily give 160 hp with few/cheap mods if any. It doesn't seem to be that way with the Miata.
Super-/Turbocharging seems to be the way to go with that motor.

160 hp would be enough for me if the engine pulls hard and likes to rev.
The Miata engine is fairly gutless down low and doesn't particularly like to rev either. Not what I would expect from an otherwise great car.
Click to expand...

160 to the wheels is doable when keeping a Miata NA, but I wouldn't expect any NA 4 banger to gain 30hp with only minor mods. I don't know of a NA 4 cylinder that will gain 30 hp off of any bolt on parts, not to the wheels at least. You will have to crack open the motor and put on cams and/or have head work done before you see 30hp to the wheels.

But your right, they gain less from NA builds then other motors. Throw a turbo on one and you can make as much power as you want. 800+ hp has been done using a 1.8 as a starting block.

So if a motor doesn't respond to NA tuning, but responds very well to a turbo... I don't see the issue at all. Building a turbo car tends to be much cheaper then building an NA.

As far as Miata VS X1/9, I still prefer the X1/9. But it has nothing to do with its engine and everything to do with where the engine is located.
 
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