My turn to wrestle with head removal

[SuperTopo]

So my son's '86 X1/9 has leaky valve seals and I finally decided to get in there and fix them. So time to pull the head. Here's problem #1:

Yup. Two broke. Rats.

Problem #2 is that the head is stuck, no amount of dead blow mallet whacks or pry bar is getting it off. For those of you who have dealt with a stuck head before, what's the first thing you'd try? Rope down the spark plug trick? Come-along from the rafters?

Once the head is off I'll see how much of the bolts are sticking out of the head, it does look like there should be enough to weld a nut on the stud and get the broken bolts out.

 

[Ulix]

I have done the rope trick and it did work really well to get that first couple of mm of separation from the block. I would recommend it.
Of course soaking it with penetrant of choice for as long as possible.
I believe I tried applying some localized heat, but I had to deal with studs on that particular motor.

 

[carl]

What makes the head stuck on non stud motors? Pulled many X heads and never had any problem. This isn't a 14 bolt head is it? I find on many engine parts that don't come off as easily as they should that there is another fastener or two that I missed.

 

[BEEK]

I had a lancia head that i was barely able to raise if off the block, then spun the head to remove it. Was only 1 bolt. Was a super amount of corrosion. Weeks of penetrating oil and a air chisel finally got the broken bolt out. Unfortunately I missed a couple of times with the chisel and have a few large indents in the head surface. So I have never used that head. Just sits there and mocks me!. But I did use the block.

 

[EricH]

What makes the head stuck on non stud motors? Pulled many X heads and never had any problem. This isn't a 14 bolt head is it? I find on many engine parts that don't come off as easily as they should that there is another fastener or two that I missed.

Carl may be on to something here - I'd expect an '86 to have a 14-bolt head.
(@SuperTopo if that's what's going on the four additional bolts are on the oil filter side of the head, smaller than the main head bolts you've already done

 

[SuperTopo]

10 bolt head, I made sure to double check on that one. I’ll try the rope trick today and report back.

 

[Jefco]

My '86 was built 7/85, 10 bolt head.
With th visible corrosion on the broken bolts, they could be all that is holding it on.
Were they all together on the head, or spread out?

 

[EricH]

Yup. Two broke. Rats.... it does look like there should be enough to weld a nut on

Sounds like they broke above the deck then? And since you confirmed the bolt count chances are it's just the steel/aluminum corrosion around the bolts that is holding the head on. That's good news, relatively speaking.
Just looking at them suggests that they were weakened by corrosion where they pass through the head. Once the head is off I'd be looking for evidence of coolant getting at the most corroded bolts.

 

[FiatFunk]

What makes the head stuck on non stud motors? Pulled many X heads and never had any problem. This isn't a 14 bolt head is it? I find on many engine parts that don't come off as easily as they should that there is another fastener or two that I missed.

The head bolts can seize to the head. I have only removed one x head and it was quite seized. Penetrant, mallet, careful prying, cranking the engine with plugs in, eventually I got it

 

[SuperTopo]

Rope for the win!! What a great trick. You know, as a mechanical engineer, I should’ve known how well this would work. There’s great leverage from the crank to the vertical motion of the piston. I was able to break the head gasket seal using the rope. It is clearly now being held up by the rusted broken off bolt that remains. I have filled the hole with penetrant, and it seems to be working loose after some wiggling around. Still not off, but making good progress. Thanks for all the suggestions!

 

[Rupunzell]

Rope for the win!! What a great trick. You know, as a mechanical engineer, I should’ve known how well this would work. There’s great leverage from the crank to the vertical motion of the piston. I was able to break the head gasket seal using the rope. It is clearly now being held up by the rusted broken off bolt that remains. I have filled the hole with penetrant, and it seems to be working loose after some wiggling around. Still not off, but making good progress. Thanks for all the suggestions!

Keep at it with penetrating oil + wiggling CCW & CW, as the wiggles can be increased, the odds of broken screw removal is good.

Fun part will be figuring what to use when this all goes back together.

Bernice

 

[dllubin]

My head bolts and studs did not want to move at all, even after much soaking with PB Blaster, etc. In the end, it turned out that I was not dealing with any corrosion. It was a black tarry substance on all the bolts and studs that was preventing them from turning. I shot them up with carb cleaner for a few days and they came right out.

 

[EricH]

Rope for the win!! What a great trick. You know, as a mechanical engineer, I should’ve known how well this would work. There’s great leverage from the crank to the vertical motion of the piston. I was able to break the head gasket seal using the rope. It is clearly now being held up by the rusted broken off bolt that remains. I have filled the hole with penetrant, and it seems to be working loose after some wiggling around. Still not off, but making good progress. Thanks for all the suggestions!

You are now home free, although it may take a little while yet before that becomes apparent. Once the seal is broken, endless wiggling, soft (wood or plastic) wedges in the gap and if necessary some hammering (block of wood between hammer and head, you don't want to damage the head now that you've gotten this far) from below on the flanges will get it off.

 

[SuperTopo]

So after a couple of days of soaking with PB Blaster, it's still stuck. Wedges aren't having the desired affect, so I made a head pulling tool. Works on the same concept as a bearing puller:

I bolted a plate to the cam tower face, and ran an old head bolt down the hole with the busted bolt. So when I tighten the head bolt it's pushing against the stud that's left from the broken bolt.

The spanner is holding the nut that's riding on the head bolt and pushing up on the head. I made some progress with this setup, but as you can see it's bending the plate. I need a thicker plate....

 

[SuperTopo]

Update: SUCCESS!!

The tool actually did the job. Check out that nice gap I have now:

I hope my luck holds out and the two busted bolts come out of the block easily...

 

[Kendall]

Have you tried coca cola? Many people swear by it to remove rusty parts.

 

[SuperTopo]

Here's the two bastards:

The long one came out with my fingers. The short one is going to fight me all the way. But I have a torch...

 

[Rod Midkiff]

At first thought, I am concerned about that much pressure on just two cam box bolts.

Seeing that plate bend like that makes me wonder even that much more.

 

[Rupunzell]

Here's the two bastards:

View attachment 81857

The long one came out with my fingers. The short one is going to fight me all the way. But I have a torch...

That short one is going to be no fun at all. Figure out a reasonable way of holding it to apply in excess of 100ft/lb of torque.. Suggest heating it up, then apply penetrating oil while hot. The hot joint expands allowing the penetrating oil to work in, cooling further coaxes the penetrating oil to soak in, heat/cool/repeat a few times then try for removal.

Essentially there is one shot at removal, think and plan out the course of action before acting. As the alternative is removal by machine tool..


Bernice

 

[SuperTopo]

That short one is going to be no fun at all. Figure out a reasonable way of holding it to apply in excess of 100ft/lb of torque.. Suggest heating it up, then apply penetrating oil while hot. The hot joint expands allowing the penetrating oil to work in, cooling further coaxes the penetrating oil to soak in, heat/cool/repeat a few times then try for removal.

Essentially there is one shot at removal, think and plan out the course of action before acting. As the alternative is removal by machine tool..


Bernice

I’m happy to report that the torch did the trick. Two cycles of getting the stud red hot and letting it cool freed it enough so that the precarious bite I could get on it with the vice grips was enough to work it loose.