Power falls off + vibration at 5000RPM+

Jonohhh

True Classic
1985 Cali 1500 w/ AC
So, I'm pretty new to X1/9s, in fact, I hadn't seen one until 2 months after I had purchased my own, when I finally took delivery of it.

However, since getting it I have struggled with one thing: an absolutely attrocious rattle/vibration from the engine area at anything more than 5000-5500 rpm, and almost no power above 5000. Often, shifting at 6000 results in the car having twice the acceleration in the next gear than it did up top in the previous gear.

Now of course this is a smog era powertrain from the days where 500ci V8's made 160hp at 3600 rpm, but given how people on here describe the little lampredi SOHC, this does not seem to be correct. Every video I can find online shows the X revving cleanly to redline, without anywhere near as substantial of a power fall off, and without horrendous vibration. It feels like the engine is gonna fly apart.

A few weeks ago I found that the crankshaft pulley was not evenly tensioning the belt- one of the studs are stripped. I thought for sure this was the cause...it wasn't. No change. Before that I thought it was a clogged cat...disposed of that...no change.


Any tips? All I can find is that the injectors do not all share the same part number ( I will try to find the documentation of that and share it below).

Ignition timing was redone, and cam timing verified when I rebuilt the distributor.

My current list of possible causes includes:

- ignition timing to far advanced, either somehow by too much base timing or by an improperly setup centrifugal advance mechanism. if this were the case I would assume that these engines in stock form on 93 octane fuel are not knock limited and I am potentially going too far advanced of peak power, causing the initial stages of combustion to work against the rotation of the engine. If advance curves are the problem I would think retarding the base ignition timing would improve the high rpm performance?

- mismatched injectors causing high cylinder to cylinder AFR and thus power production variance. this sounds good, but the vibration is strong, and does it under low load, so I'm a bit skeptical


Does anyone have experience with something like this? Otherwise in the lower rpm ranges the engine runs fantastic... it has an occasional miss here or there at idle which I assume is normal with Ljet, and it also doesn't have the vacuum advance curves where I want them, but I digress.

Also, the dogbone mount is new, and the lower engine mount is not so bad that the axle tripod is rubbing on the cross member.

Tia, Jon!
 
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Start with the basics. Remove #1 spark plug and turn crank to TDC on compression stroke. Now, go to the bell housing and verify the white mark on the flywheel lines up with 0 on the bell housing. If that is OK, now verify the the camshaft is properly timed.
 
Start with the basics. Remove #1 spark plug and turn crank to TDC on compression stroke. Now, go to the bell housing and verify the white mark on the flywheel lines up with 0 on the bell housing. If that is OK, now verify the the camshaft is properly timed.
Sorry for not adding this more directly in my original post. Timing was set to 10btdc base, and cam timing appeared to be correct. I was really hoping it'd be as simple as that but unfortunately not.
 
If you suspect the advance is the problem, try timing it for a maximum advance of about 30 degrees at whatever rpm is maximum advance. Note that the rpm for max advance differs depending on which X distributor you have. If you have the original Bosch FI distributor, that should be at about 3,500 rpm.

Is this a stock engine or has it been modified?
 
Sorry for not adding this more directly in my original post. Timing was set to 10btdc base, and cam timing appeared to be correct. I was really hoping it'd be as simple as that but unfortunately not.
I would do what @johnph recommended. The timing marks on the front of the engine are adjustable and can be way off if not set correctly. Use the flywheel timing marks to make sure the front timing mark scale is set correctly.
 
I would also check the valve clearances if you have not already done so, especially if the car has no maintenance history.
 
Example of the flywheel mark. They can be difficult to spot on a well used engine. You are basically looking for a little dimple, probably no longer painted.
IM002985.JPG
 
I went back and painted the dimple white on the flywheel and the same with the mark on the pulley.

The fuel injected engines were not strangled to speak of. The biggest negative with them is the rather tame cam in them partly due to emissions and partly due to the tech used to measure the air volume entering the engine.

Both of my X’s (85 and and 87) rev freely and strongly to redline, with some regularity :)

I presume your car has AC?
 
Wow everyone, thanks for all the responses.


Given the variety of suggestions, ill give a more detailed maintenance history to maybe help narrow it down. The issue has not changed in behavior following any of the below.

The car has 68,000miles on it, and was sitting in a lot (Allisons Automotive over in Los Angeles) for over two years before I snagged it.



Ignition:

- Spark Plugs Replaced
- Distributor Rotor and Cap replaced
- Distributor disassembled, cleaned, and lubed
- Plug and Coil wires replaced

Upon re-timing the ignition system after the distributor rebuild, I had one hell of a time trying to get it to start. It turns out that I had TWO dimples on my flywheel, offset at least 45 degrees from each other. The false one was much larger if I remember correctly. It gave me quite the fright because the marks on the cam sprocket were not lining up, so it appeared as if the cam timing was off...so off that I didn't think it was possible to run the way it appeared to be set, despite it running decent. Later, we found the other mark on the flywheel and idle timing was set to 10 degrees (via the flywheel) with the vacuum advance hooked to ported vacuum.

Fuel Injection System:

-Injector hoses replaced
-Injector Cleaner used
-new pump
-new filter
-cleaned and re-lubed AFM
-cleaned and re-lubed throttle position switch


All was straightforward, no surprises except the mismatched injectors that I am still looking for part numbers on. The fuel filter was absolutely gross.

Air:

-No leaks in the hose from AFM to TB
-No vacuum leaks
-Cleaned intake manifold and runners
- clean and new air filter (actually the filter end of an Abarth holey cowl intake but whatever)

Misc:

-AC compressor belt removed (system has a giant leak, no point in spinning the compressor pulley with it always disengaged)
- water pump spins freely
 
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I went back and painted the dimple white on the flywheel and the same with the mark on the pulley.

The fuel injected engines were not strangled to speak of. The biggest negative with them is the rather tame cam in them partly due to emissions and partly due to the tech used to measure the air volume entering the engine.

Both of my X’s (85 and and 87) rev freely and strongly to redline, with some regularity :)

I presume your car has AC?

Thanks for the info on the characteristics of the FI cars. I'm glad to hear it gets better 😊 The car does have AC but the system is empty, and the belt removed. I wish the lack of power was associated with it being nice and cool inside! That's a tradeoff I'm willing to take... unless I'm trying to keep up with a Corolla from a stop light because boy is it slow right now.
 
If you suspect the advance is the problem, try timing it for a maximum advance of about 30 degrees at whatever rpm is maximum advance. Note that the rpm for max advance differs depending on which X distributor you have. If you have the original Bosch FI distributor, that should be at about 3,500 rpm.

Is this a stock engine or has it been modified?
Ah, I didn't realize that it was 3500 rpm for the Bosch distributor...I thought it was 5000. As far as I'm aware, the engine is completely stock. It has a bit of an interesting idle but isn't that a characteristic of four cylinder L jet cars? If not please correct me!
 
I would also check the valve clearances if you have not already done so, especially if the car has no maintenance history.
I haven't cracked the engine open yet. I'm a bit nervous to take on the task of adjusting the valves considering all of the shims involved- I've adjusted valve lash but never on a shim setup.

Considering the mileage (68k) I assume it hasn't been done, so Ill check.
 
All was straightforward, no surprises except the mismatched injectors that I am still looking for part numbers on

 
Ah, I didn't realize that it was 3500 rpm for the Bosch distributor...I thought it was 5000. As far as I'm aware, the engine is completely stock. It has a bit of an interesting idle but isn't that a characteristic of four cylinder L jet cars? If not please correct me!
The carbed 1500 has a max advance at 5,500 rpm. The FI is 3,500 rpm. Check the service manual available for download in the Wiki section of the site.
 
I appear to have a mix of 121 and 123 injectors- definitely at least one of them is a 123, the other I can't tell due to some damage to the body.

Of course, as the thread says, some sources say that there is no difference besides hose length, others state potential spray pattern or 13cc (yikes) differences between them.


Not sure where that leaves me. As you said in the post, I'm not sure mixing the two on the same engine is a good idea. If there is in fact a flow difference im sure the cylinder to cylinder variance wouldn't be great. I think that works out to only 93% of the fuel expected being delivered to the two cylinders with the 121 injectors which really is fairly considerate all in all.
 
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The carbed 1500 has a max advance at 5,500 rpm. The FI is 3,500 rpm. Check the service manual available for download in the Wiki section of the site.
That makes much more sense, and potentially rules out my theory about too much mechanical timing advance starting aboce 5000rpm. I will check max advance as soon as I can. Thank you much for the information!
 
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A bad rattle can often be traced to exhaust system parts, such as loose heat shields. I think there is a heat shield over the cast iron exhaust manifold, are you sure that's tight? Then work your way down the system and see if anything else is loose. Something to check for, anyway.

I would think that if your engine had a bad rattle at 5k and it was related to AFR's, then your engine would be toast already.

Edit: Not that you should not be concerned about what you found with the injectors. Another useful check would be to remove the aforementioned heat shield and with the engine cold (so heat soak can't get to everything), run the engine up hard to 6k under load. Pull over immediately and get a temp gun on each runner of the exhaust manifold. They all ought to be roughly the same. If one is considerably colder, you might be running on 3 cylinders. If one (or more) is considerably hotter, that might indicate a lean condition on that cylinder.
 
A bad rattle can often be traced to exhaust system parts, such as loose heat shields. I think there is a heat shield over the cast iron exhaust manifold, are you sure that's tight? Then work your way down the system and see if anything else is loose. Something to check for, anyway.

I would think that if your engine had a bad rattle at 5k and it was related to AFR's, then your engine would be toast already.

Edit: Not that you should not be concerned about what you found with the injectors. Another useful check would be to remove the aforementioned heat shield and with the engine cold (so heat soak can't get to everything), run the engine up hard to 6k under load. Pull over immediately and get a temp gun on each runner of the exhaust manifold. They all ought to be roughly the same. If one is considerably colder, you might be running on 3 cylinders. If one (or more) is considerably hotter, that might indicate a lean condition on that cylinder.
I will check all of the heat shields today, thank you. Is there supposed to be a brace that runs from the transmission to the muffler? My car most definitely doesn't have one, and I've seen a few pictures of them online.

I'll have to find my pyrometer and will check EGTs as well, thanks!
 
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