Starter won't spin but solenoid clicks...

[Cratecruncher]

I started a summer road trip in my '86 a few days ago. After only 120 miles I stopped for a short break and returned to find the starter wouldn't spin - just a faint click. GREAT! Why does this only happen 120 miles from home in a sleepy little town nobody (except the residents) ever heard of. Anyway, I managed to find a fellow with a truck and a soft spot for little Italian cars to give me a jump. Fired right up. Drove to NAPA (not a sponsor) down the street and shut it off. Click. Great.

NAPA fellow put a pile on the battery and pronounced it defective. Oh, ok. Well it is NINE years old. Bought a new battery. Click. Well, I did need a battery and it was a good price I convinced myself. The nice NAPA guys push started my car to get me back on the road and waved goodbye. So much for the summer road trip in the X1/9. Got it safely back home without stalling at any major intersections. Now to figure out what's going on.

 

[JimD]

Do you have a hard start relay installed? I was having this issue on my 85X. Got a new battery, still having issues. Then I decided to get a new gear reduction starter, thought I had fixed it, but a few days later I had the same clicky-click issue. Finally, after some playing around with the ignition switch, I decided the issue may be in the ignition switch/wiring. (I am not good a testing things.) I put in a hard start relay to take the starting load off the ignition switch and it fires every time now. This may not be your issue, but thought I would bring it up as a possibility.

 

[DanielForest]

Did you "insist"? The usual case of a need for the Brown wire mod is usually that. The starter didn't spin, or even click, then after a few try turning the key, it suddenly start. And it could be like that for months, just giving you some stress about " will it start this time", until you do the brown wire mod (that you will find in many topics in this forum, maybe even in our wikipedia).

 

[Cratecruncher]

Well, a clever knowledgeable fellow used to working on these cars would probably go straight to the ignition switch. But I'm never clever or knowledgeable about X1/9's so I decided to pull the starter and see how everything works. While I was in there I also did a few cleanup chores and tested the solenoid resistance. One thing of note, the solenoid plunger requires about 6 pounds of force to come into contact with the bottom plate in the bore. But it requires 8 additional pounds of force to bridge the contacts for the starter at the back of the solenoid. That's 14 pounds and I didn't take into account the drag of engaging the starter pinion with the flywheel. So, that tells me the solenoid plunger has to overcome 14+ pounds of resistance before the starter gets a drop of juice to the commutator ring!

Layout of the Marelli starter. Note the two big copper terminals sticking out of the solenoid. When the plunger presses the spring loaded cup in the bottom of the solenoid it bridges the two terminals and full battery current is supplied to the starter motor.

A view down the bore of the solenoid. Over 14 pounds of force are required just to bridge the terminals at the end!

 

[Cratecruncher]

Ok, I just found something about this Marelli that looks really weird. I was testing the coil resistance of the solenoid which was about 1.5 ohms - that seemed about right according to the shop manual. But while the body of the coil was still grounded to my meter I accidently touched the lower main terminal to the starter and the needle jumped to 5 ohms. What?

So, I have a direct connection between the terminal to the starter and chassis ground. I've been scratching my head how that could possibly work and I got nothin'... It appears to me that when the ignition switch sends voltage to the solenoid the plunger connects the two end terminals bridging the battery straight to ground. Click!

Am I missing something here?

 

[ng_randolph]

Ok, I just found something about this Marelli that looks really weird. I was testing the coil resistance of the solenoid which was about 1.5 ohms - that seemed about right according to the shop manual. But while the body of the coil was still grounded to my meter I accidently touched the lower main terminal to the starter and the needle jumped to 5 ohms. What?

So, I have a direct connection between the terminal to the starter and chassis ground. I've been scratching my head how that could possibly work and I got nothin'... It appears to me that when the ignition switch sends voltage to the solenoid the plunger connects the two end terminals bridging the battery straight to ground. Click!

Am I missing something here?

I can't really picture how you are measuring this, but the starter motor proper is going to measure close to a dead short. So I am guessing what you are seeing is normal.

 

[Kendall]

You should open up your ignition switch. I had the same symptoms and rebuilding the switch cured them completely. Does your key ever turn 360° around? Is the body of the switch loose feeling? My switch was so bad once while driving the car I suddenly lost all electric power. Basically the two halves of the switch separated which prevents any circuit of the switch from completing. I have a thread where I show all the internal parts and how I put it back together. You might check it out.

Ignition Switch Repair

This guide has good instructions for getting to and taking apart the ignition switch, but the picture links are dead. https://xwebforums.com/wiki/index.php?title=Ignition_Switch I'm hoping to give some detailed pictures and some notes on what I did to fix my ignition switch. My symptoms were...

xwebforums.com

 

[Cratecruncher]

I can't really picture how you are measuring this, but the starter motor proper is going to measure close to a dead short. So I am guessing what you are seeing is normal.

Here is a rather dark pic (sorry) of what I'm measuring:

The meter is measuring about 2 ohms between the motor terminal and the case. That case is grounded to the starter case which is grounded to the transmission etc. I even tested it with the plunger at full stroke bridging the terminals in the thought that it might be some kind of safety feature. But no change. It's always grounded. I think this solenoid is FUBAR but it's so weird I thought I'd share it.

Honestly, I expected the problem to be in the car's wiring but wanted to make sure I understood how the starter engages, current loads on the wires, that sort of thing. Anyway, if this is the problem I can get a new replacement off eBay for $60.

 

[ng_randolph]

You are essentially measuring the resistance of the pull-in winding and the hold-in winding in series, and 2 Ω is in the ballpark.

Drawing found on the web, not Fiat specific:

 

[Cratecruncher]

Wow, I had no idea there were two independent coils. I measured 1.4 ohm from the trigger spade to case and 1.0 ohm from the trigger to the motor terminal. So measured in series it would be about 2.4 ohm. Your circuit diagram fits my measurements. Thanks Bjorn! I guess I got s'more work to do.

 

[Ernie]

The 9 year old battery started the car until it didn't. The new battery didn't start the car.

First thing I would have checked when a push start got me home would be the ground connection from the transmission to the frame.

That ground strap is easily overlooked because of where it's located. I'm assuming the later cars have this. I only have early cars. This connection is quite necessary on my 124 spiders as well.

 

[MikeHynes]

The started solenoid has a copper bar that connects the main lug (from the battery and connects to the alternator) to the main lug that powers the starter. That copper bar makes contact when the solenoid is powered up and will pit and develop deposits in use over time. These pits/deposits are exaggerated when the voltage to the solenoid is reduced and the magnetic strength of the solenoid is lowered thus reducing the force of the contact. (More on that below.) You can easily disassemble the solenoid by un-soldering one wire (that powers up the coil when the key is moved to the start position), and by removing two screws or bolts. Once the solenoid is opened up you'll see the copper bar. Flip the copper bar over and clean up the contacts of the main lugs. Simple stuff and very intuitive. Then reassemble and re-solder the wire that was unsoldered before.
Now, back to the magnetic strength of the coil in the solenoid. The solenoid draws a lot of current and it draws it through the ignition switch. The amount of current required will, over time, cause the same pitting/deposits that is seen on the copper bar in the solenoid, in the ignition switch. That reduces the current the starter solenoid receives - thus reducing the magnetic power of the solenoid and accelerating the pitting/deposits on the main lugs/copper bar. With all that pitting/deposits in the ignition switch and started solenoid, with time/use you end up with a click - click, no start condition.
You can take the load off of the ignition switch by installing a solenoid - to operate the solenoid on the started motor. (I know, it sounds odd to have a solenoid to operate a solenoid, but there's a lot of current draw so...) Simply insert a solenoid triggered from the ignition switch (the spade terminal that was connected to the starter solenoid), with main power from the lug on the starter (fed power from the battery and powers the alternator). Direct the power to the spade terminal of the starter solenoid that was triggered by the ignition switch. (Run a simple ground wire from the solenoid trigger to one of the studs on the firewall.) By installing the "hard start" solenoid you take load off of the ignition switch (a very good thing), but you also insure the starter solenoid receives full voltage which lengthens the life of the starter/solenoid. And makes sure the starter gets full voltage and that your car will start.
I recommend the "hard start" solenoid for everyone, even if you don't "rebuild" your starter solenoid.
BTW- some starters have an additional switch inside the starter solenoid. It won't make "rebuilding the starter solenoid any more difficult.

 

[Cratecruncher]

Great info guys. Much appreciated. It's hotter than a $3 pistol in my garage right now but tomorrow AM I plan to clean the ground strap and add an 80 amp rated 4 pin relay using power from the battery wire to pin 30 with pin 87 to the solenoid. Mike, I believe that's pretty much what you were suggesting with your solenoid for a solenoid approach.

Cleaning up or flipping the "bar" inside the main solenoid is something I recall Bernice mentioning with her 1300. Can I take the end off a Marelli 63600800 solenoid? (See picture above.) If I can do it I'd like to try. Heck I have a soldering station and love the burn of flux smoke in my eyes, haha. I see two soldered lugs on the end - one at the battery terminal, one at the trigger wire spade. There are two large phillips type screws.

 

[MikeHynes]

You should be able to "rebuild" your solenoid. Unsolder the connection at the red arrow and remove the two screws. Your solenoid has the extra switch (green arrow), that may be where the other solder joint is. Pretty sure you'll have to de-solder that one too, but that will be clear when you try to disassemble it.

 

[Cratecruncher]

Ok, got the solenoid desoldered and apart. She's a mess. Shouldn't take too much to clean things up. But I'm a little hesitant to try and flip that copper bar over. To do that I'll need to pull three rather brittle looking plastic tabs away from a shaft to get that plunger apart. One broken tab and it's game over. I'll try polishing and see how that goes first.

 

[Cratecruncher]

Follow up on this repair. The starter and solenoid were cleaned and reassembled and then reinstalled. I added an 80 Amp sealed relay on the firewall. Now the ignition switch starting circuit only has to close the relay to bring full battery voltage directly to the solenoid. It just works every time now. None of the wiring harness needed modification. The stock trigger wire was long enough to reach the relay and I fabricated a two wire harness for the rest of the circuit.

JimD nailed the nature of the problem in the first reply of the thread. My silly starter/solenoid disassembly shenanigans didn't accomplish much other than confirming I need more hobbies and that it was NOT a problem with the Marelli starter or the solenoid. So if you are having a similar problem with your car don't jump to replace your stock starter without at least testing it.

 

[tvmaster]

Follow up on this repair. The starter and solenoid were cleaned and reassembled and then reinstalled. I added an 80 Amp sealed relay on the firewall. Now the ignition switch starting circuit only has to close the relay to bring full battery voltage directly to the solenoid. It just works every time now. None of the wiring harness needed modification. The stock trigger wire was long enough to reach the relay and I fabricated a two wire harness for the rest of the circuit.

JimD nailed the nature of the problem in the first reply of the thread. My silly starter/solenoid disassembly shenanigans didn't accomplish much other than confirming I need more hobbies and that it was NOT a problem with the Marelli starter or the solenoid. So if you are having a similar problem with your car don't jump to replace your stock starter without at least testing it.

For the less-technically inclined like me, any chance you can either draw a block diagram of the relay/fuse if added (of the new wiring), and/or post a photo or three?
thanks

 

[kmead]

For the less-technically inclined like me, any chance you can either draw a block diagram of the relay/fuse if added (of the new wiring), and/or post a photo or three?
thanks

As you have a 74 you already have a starter relay in the car with a push button in the engine bay to engage the starter. You should be able to use this existing system by bridging the seatbelt interlock system to take that part of the connections out of the loop.

This thread covers using what you have to make what you need:

'74 seat belt interlock bypass - documenting bypass and questions

Have both a question but also trying to document for future searches so links and pictures come up in one place. The seat belt interlock, unique to 1974 and very early 1975 cars, have two (?) relays and controller tucked under the passenger side dash as pictured here. Uploaded with...

xwebforums.com

This image is the critical one which changes the system to just be a starter relay:

You shouldn’t have to add anything to your car beyond connecting two existing wires directly to each other near the drivers seat belt buckle assembly.

However if the gnome who effed with your car did not understand this system and bypassed it entirely you have some work cut out for you.

For most X owners the following is what they would do to add a hard start relay:

This is what most X1/9s have: the battery which has two sets of wires attached to it, a negative which is bolted directly to the body and a positive heavy wire that goes directly to the starter (along with several smaller wires which bring power to all the other systems in your car). You have the ignition switch which receives power from the battery and when you turn the key to the start position now directs some of that power to a 10ga wire that runs from the switch, along the main tunnel and to the starter solenoid. When the wire has power to the solenoid it engages a winding in the solenoid which pushes the starter gear forward to engage the flywheel and second winding engages the 300 or so amps to the starter motor which will spin the gear engaged to the flywheel and hopefully your engine will start.

What you will be doing: Adding a relay between the ignition switch and the solenoid, getting power directly from the starter main lug to go to the 30 terminal of the relay with a new wire (with an inline fuse if you so desire), using the existing wire from the ignition switch to excite the relay, a wire to ground the relay and finally a new wire from the 87 terminal to the existing spade connection on the starter which used to have the wire from the ignition switch.

The fuse is optional, the existing circuit is not fused but if you want an additional safety step the new wire from the main lug of the starter to the relay can have a 30amp fuse.

What you will be making (roughly)

Personally I would put the relay inside the spare tire area high on the right side wall when facing the spare tire. I don’t like having relays in the weather.

The relay connections (rough because I need to go to work)

The wire from the ignition switch can be separated out of the wire loom in the spare tire compartment to got to the 86 terminal on the relay. The other three wires will be added.

 

[tvmaster]

As you have a 74 you already have a starter relay in the car with a push button in the engine bay to engage the starter. You should be able to use this existing system by bridging the seatbelt interlock system to take that part of the connections out of the loop.

This thread covers using what you have to make what you need:

'74 seat belt interlock bypass - documenting bypass and questions

Have both a question but also trying to document for future searches so links and pictures come up in one place. The seat belt interlock, unique to 1974 and very early 1975 cars, have two (?) relays and controller tucked under the passenger side dash as pictured here. Uploaded with...

xwebforums.com

This image is the critical one which changes the system to just be a starter relay:

View attachment 71062

You shouldn’t have to add anything to your car beyond connecting two existing wires directly to each other near the drivers seat belt buckle assembly.

However if the gnome who effed with your car did not understand this system and bypassed it entirely you have some work cut out for you.

For most X owners the following is what they would do to add a hard start relay:

This is what most X1/9s have: the battery which has two sets of wires attached to it, a negative which is bolted directly to the body and a positive heavy wire that goes directly to the starter (along with several smaller wires which bring power to all the other systems in your car). You have the ignition switch which receives power from the battery and when you turn the key to the start position now directs some of that power to a 10ga wire that runs from the switch, along the main tunnel and to the starter solenoid. When the wire has power to the solenoid it engages a winding in the solenoid which pushes the starter gear forward to engage the flywheel and second winding engages the 300 or so amps to the starter motor which will spin the gear engaged to the flywheel and hopefully your engine will start.
View attachment 71058

What you will be doing: Adding a relay between the ignition switch and the solenoid, getting power directly from the starter main lug to go to the 30 terminal of the relay with a new wire (with an inline fuse if you so desire), using the existing wire from the ignition switch to excite the relay, a wire to ground the relay and finally a new wire from the 87 terminal to the existing spade connection on the starter which used to have the wire from the ignition switch.
View attachment 71059
The fuse is optional, the existing circuit is not fused but if you want an additional safety step the new wire from the main lug of the starter to the relay can have a 30amp fuse.

What you will be making (roughly)

View attachment 71060

Personally I would put the relay inside the spare tire area high on the right side wall when facing the spare tire. I don’t like having relays in the weather.

The relay connections (rough because I need to go to work)
View attachment 71061

The wire from the ignition switch can be separated out of the wire loom in the spare tire compartment to got to the 86 terminal on the relay. The other three wires will be added.

Brilliant, thanks Carl. I too have been getting occasional ‘clicks’ when starting, new battery and trickle charger in use.

 

[myronx19]

My starter would click if I got a tooth on tooth engagement of the starter. I would put the car in gear, roll it a small amount and boom - car would start.

I installed a temporary hard start relay like this (it's not ideal as the relay is upside down, not great if it gets wet over time). Anyway, it works great! I'll eventually relocate it to the firewall or at least orient it differently.