swapping a 5 speed into a "76"'

azxhead

azxhead

True Classic
Hi all. I sold the 1300/5speed setup - with all accessories attached - from my 78 to a man with a car that is allegedly a "76".

Installing the engine/transmission assembly went well until we were surprised by a few things... (Couple of issues to think and plan for if you consider doing the same some day)

1) the shift rod - that goes from shifter to lollypop mount - is completely different than any of the 76, 77, 78, 79, 81 or 83 X/19 I have owned. The 5 speed shifter from a 79 will not fit the connection on this rod - not even close. Now, this is a simple (but not easy fix) in that we can change out the rod for the one that was in the 78. But doing so will require getting the engine out of the way...

2) on the 77 and 78 cars that I have swapped the 5 speed into, there was no issue of the 5 speed case making contact with the frame. On this car, the engine would have to rotate on the lower mount almost 10 degrees to remove it from the frame (meaning that we would need a shorter dog-bone mount), but then the CV bottoms out on the cross-member - any ideas here?

3) is it common for a 76 to have an external voltage regulator? I've not seen this on any X I have ever owned. How difficult is it to adapt an alternator with the internal regulator?

At this point, I am thinking that maybe this car is not actually a 76, but maybe an earlier model that got labeled that way. Is this possible?
 
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External voltage regulator query.....!

azxhead said:
.... is it common for a 76 to have an external voltage regulator? .....
Click to expand...

....my '78 1300 X has an external voltage regulator!
However, my car probably was from a late 1977 production run, as it was shipped ex-factory to UK in mid-1978, where it was delivered to a UK dealer prior to shipment (as new) to NZ (a commonly-exploited customs duty dodge!), where it was first registered in Jan 1979.
I think it is very difficult to determine, by vehicle registration date, just when the first internally-regulated alternators were supplied by Fiat.
This same question has been raised many times over the years here on X-Web, seemingly without any finalisation. :sigh:

cheers, Ian - NZ
 
You shouldn't need to move the motor/trans to swap the shift rod.

I've switched back and forth between a '74 and an '80+ shift rod with the motors/transmissions in place.
 
On early cars, you need to add a big dent to the chassis member that is already there on later cars.
 
Lots of comments flying around here that I have...

Some trouble agreeing with...based on my experiences. My comments are in BOLD between the lines...

azxhead said:
Hi all. I sold the 1300/5speed setup - with all accessories attached - from my 78 to a man with a car that is allegedly a "76".

Installing the engine/transmission assembly went well until we were surprised by a few things... (Couple of issues to think and plan for if you consider doing the same some day)

1) the shift rod - that goes from shifter to lollypop mount - is completely different than any of the 76, 77, 78, 79, 81 or 83 X/19 I have owned. The 5 speed shifter from a 79 will not fit the connection on this rod - not even close. Now, this is a simple (but not easy fix) in that we can change out the rod for the one that was in the 78. But doing so will require getting the engine out of the way...

Welp... all you really have to do is CONNECT the two which can be done with a flat piece of metal and by drilling a few holes. Fabricating this sort of "adapter" should be quite easy. Most "lollipop" joints I have seen as of late have been "stabilized" with screws or bolts. My '79 has a flat steel "link" that was spring suspended on one end I guess to eliminate vibration. I ended up "through-bolting" it solid to remove all slop and gain some good "feel".

2) on the 77 and 78 cars that I have swapped the 5 speed into, there was no issue of the 5 speed case making contact with the frame.

I agree... but we always changed out the A-arms as well using a "notched" left A-arm to clear the 5 speed and also because the axles and hubs were a match.

On this car, the engine would have to rotate on the lower mount almost 10 degrees to remove it from the frame (meaning that we would need a shorter dog-bone mount), but then the CV bottoms out on the cross-member - any ideas here?

I agree that the engine "tilt" would be a bit different and I too lean towards a shorter "dogbone" as the 1500 is said to be a bit taller. The thing is I have never installed a 1300/5speed, always a 1500/5 speed... so I can't say anything for sure at this point. Thinking about this a bit harder... maybe you actually do need a longer dogbone with the 1300. As to the CV hitting the the crossmember... that is usually a problem with the lower mount and/or the snail mount. It has been my experience that the upper mount (dogbone) has never cured a lower CV joint clearance problem. Maybe this time as you say... but I just haven't seen it.

(I think I would try using something like a turn buckle with an "eye" on each end and adjust it so the engine tilt is where you want it with regards to all the things we discussed here. Then you can either bolt it up solid or use it as a source to determine what size "stock" dogbone you might need to replace it. There are many sizes available off all sorts of Fiats or you can cut and weld up one of your own. BTW, bolting it solid transmits all engine vibrations right into the cab. Fun for about two blocks!)

3) is it common for a 76 to have an external voltage regulator? I've not seen this on any X I have ever owned. How difficult is it to adapt an alternator with the internal regulator?

I dunno and I suggest you not worry about it. Remove the external regulator and wiring and install a later model Marelli or Bosch using a MAIN wire to the starter and another to the idiot light, which also "excites" the alternator. A better alternative (IMHO) is to replace it all with a GM alternator. Details in the Best Of section of 1.0. Write if you need further help

At this point, I am thinking that maybe this car is not actually a 76, but maybe an earlier model that got labeled that way. Is this possible?
Click to expand...

Anything is possible... start a NEW thread with the VIN number and we can then tell you the most likely date of manufacture.

Hope this helps...
 
good info

After we make the "precision frame adjustment" using a BFH, we will see how everything sits and go from there.

now, on the shift rod, there is no problem with hooking up at the transmission. The issue on the other end. The 5peed shifter is way too big to fit that end and making and adapter on that end would require cutting and welding. Better to just replace the entire shaft, which is easy since I have one :)
 
Precision frame adjustment...

Just where would that be? As I said earlier, all we ever did was use the 5 speed A-Arms. Are you planning to use the 4 speed A-Arms, "clearance" them or "adjust" them as you say... and then modify the half-shafts to fit the 5 speed trans? (Only need to clearance the left side...)

Maybe I'm way off base here... I just have never encountered any "frame" problems.

As for the gear shift lever... I kinda see what you mean. But can't you just use the same 4 speed lever as is or modify a knob to replace the stocker? I imagine there are many alternatives as well...
 
Tony, later 1300s and all 1500s have a dent in the left frame rail to clear the longer 5speed case. I don't know why they started the dent before the X came with 5speeds though.
Without the dent, the case extension hits the frame rail.

I will be installing a 5speed in my 74 and am not looking forward to BFHammering on my frame rail...
 
everything has been changed

swing arms, hub/uprights, struts, cross-member, mounts, driveshafts, engine and transmission all came from a 78 and it fit just fine. In this car, the 5 speed case makes heavy contact with the frame. Upon inspection my 79, and the 78 that donated these parts, have a factory designed recess in that area. This car does not.

The four speed shifter simply won't work because it I will not allow a shift into 5th gear.
 
azxhead said:
swing arms, hub/uprights, struts, cross-member, mounts, driveshafts, engine and transmission all came from a 78 and it fit just fine. In this car, the 5 speed case makes heavy contact with the frame. Upon inspection my 79, and the 78 that donated these parts, have a factory designed recess in that area. This car does not.

The four speed shifter simply won't work because it I will not allow a shift into 5th gear.
Click to expand...


You need to do check the bolt that holds the seat belt in place on the tunnel. Replace that with a smaller bolt. The shift linkage may be rubbing against that. Also make sure you have a 5 speed shifter assembly or you drimel off the part that keeps you from going into 5th. I had some of these but SOld them. I have a 5 speed shifter somewhere if you need it..
 
After some investigating...

here is the deal... the "76" X1/9 has the shift rod that is specific to 74/75 models...

If we swap out the shifter, shift rod and unique linkage that are specific to a 79, will this work? If so, that would seem to be the best option since we have all of those parts readily available.
 
azxhead said:
here is the deal... the "76" X1/9 has the shift rod that is specific to 74/75 models...
Click to expand...
Not surprising at all - these cutovers never correspond exactly to model year boundaries[/quote]

If we swap out the shifter, shift rod and unique linkage that are specific to a 79, will this work?
Click to expand...

That's exactly what I did when I transplanted a '79 five-speed into one of my '74s, and it works fine. However, pay attention to jjay's advice about the seat belt bolts, and also (this is thanks to Mark Plaia, I believe) check for a metal flange in the tunnel that interferes with the fifth-gear position of the shifter. If you have this flange (I did), a moment with a hammer and a punch will get it out of the way.

I was able to do the shift rod transplant without removing the engine or the tranny, although it was a very tight fit.
 
Thanks Ulix, AZ, I'm always learning...

I suppose I have never encountered the earlier models and the frame issue.

Hope the rest goes smoothly...
 
Ulix said:
I will be installing a 5speed in my 74 and am not looking forward to BFHammering on my frame rail...
Click to expand...

FWIW... My 1500/5-speed into a '74 didn't need the hammering. The fit is close enough that I checked for scrape marks after the first few hundred miles, but after a few years, few autocrosses, and a few thousand miles of commuting, there's still no contact.

I may have gotten lucky with my engine mount though, because it is close. I wouldn't want to promise anyone else that it will work for them.

As for how I came to know this... I just plain forgot about the frame-whacking step until I had the tranny in :tomato:, but when I remembered and went back and checked... and I had gotten lucky.
 
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