Temps with rebuilt radiator

All of those are possible Karl. I checked the timing a while back and it was good. I do not have a fancy advance timing light. I will check it again.

I have been thinking the carb is rich rather than lean, but I don't know carbs that well. I have been trying to find a good carb shop locally. No luck so far.

The water pump is unknown. It is very clean, but that has little meaning.

The rad looked clean on the inside when I got it back.what I could see anyway.

I did not put any special flush chemicals in. While not a true indicator, the coolant that came out looked fresh.

I will start working thru the list starting with timing.
 
I recall you had a coolant leak from under your manifolds... did you ever remove the manifolds and actually repair the problem or was some barsleak the final solution?

Removing the head from one of these OHV's is so easy don't let it scare you ... the elephant in the room is a head gasket issue that's been lurking all along... your radiator guy even said the radiator showed signs of over pressure, all the small signs point towards it.

SteveC
 
Hi Steve,

From what I could tell the leak was from a freeze plug, but I never dug too deep because a very small amount of stop leak cured the leak on the first try. That doesn't mean that you are not correct. The real problem is, as you can probably tell, I am a complete amateur flailing away at this car.

This is the engine bay on the day I brought the car home. When I look at this engine, I get the impression that the head is one of the newer parts. It is shiny where the majority of the other parts look like they have been in place since 1972. It could be that the head has been replaced and the rad damage dates to that event. Of course, it is all a guess on my part.


This is what I observe about the operation of the car that makes me think this isn't a head gasket failure. The car doesn't leak or lose coolant. It doesn't seem to burn any oil either, of course I don't drive it all that much. Neither the oil or coolant shows any sign of mixing. The overflow tank maintains a consistent level at about the height of the metal band securing it to the inner fender. With a 7lb radiator cap, wouldn't the overflow be filled from the over pressure if the cooling system was filling with air? If the head were leaking coolant to places it shouldn't be, wouldn't the car smoke from the tail pipe on start up as it cooks off coolant?

I have gotten fairly comfortable with the X1/9 over the years, this 124 was a step outside of that comfort zone. I like the car, but it might be time to pass the car along to someone with more knowledge or perhaps just more determination. Hobbies are supposed to be enjoyable... right? If I want to be tortured I will go back to golf. ;)
 
Hi Jim. I suppose another possibility to check for - is that if the rad fan is indeed blowing air in the proper direction (that is into the engine compartment)

I think you said the PO had been messing with the wiring for the rad fan. If....he hooked the wires up backwards, the fan would blow the wrong direction. And yes, this would lead to your symptoms.

Perhaps not likely - but at least will only take you about 2 seconds to check.....

Good luck. Doug
 
I will do that Doug. That is an easy one to check. Thanks for the idea.
 
That is a good one. I have seen them miswired a couple of times.
 
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another bad thing about bar's stop leak. it plugs heater cores and radiators.

on the short term black pepper works very well and goes away with time (that is why it does not plug up cores and radiators).

another trick is Egg whites (they will cook in the hole and plug the leak) I have done both and they both work.
 
I remember using the old BARS on my dad's Pontiacs. It was a big bottle with dark brown/black liquid and lots of pellets in the bottom of the bottle. The BARS I used was a 6oz bottle of gray/silver liquid with no pellets or lumps of anything. I only used 3oz in the system and the leak stopped. I have drained and refilled the system since I used the BARS. The heater works great, so hopefully it didn't hurt anything while it was sealing the drip.
 
Just a quick follow up on this. After forgetting about the fan for a few weeks, I finally got around to the simple "which way does the wind blow" test. Unfortunately, it is blowing in the correct direction and sucking air thru the rad into the engine bay.

The only wiring change to the fan by the PO was to zip tie a jumper wire to the over flow hose. It is a short "Y" adapter with three female spade connectors and when I bought the car the rad switch wires were connected to this jumper to make it always on. I think I will take it for a ride in that configuration and see what happens, just to refresh my memory. I guess this means the overheating issue has been a long term thing.
 
Jim, doing a top overhaul on these pushrod engines is one of the simpler Fiat jobs one could get! everything is easy to access, and you shouldn't feel at all intimidated by it.

A top overhaul on a 124 special was actually the very first job my Dad ever let me do from start to finish at his workshop one summer holidays, when I was about 13!

If it's been a long term thing, then a slight head gasket leak is still my best guess...but for sure check the simple stuff first... the radiator cap sealing and seating correctly is one that often catches people out... fan blowing instead of drawing air in (as mentioned)...thermostat operation, radiator blockage, basic carb and ignition tuning... but it seems to me you've done these and covered all the basics.

Since reading this thread the first time, I keep seeing NOS radiators for the 124 specials on ebay... but not for the auto trans model specifically.

SteveC
 
fiatfactory said:
Since reading this thread the first time, I keep seeing NOS radiators for the 124 specials on ebay... but not for the auto trans model specifically.

SteveC
Click to expand...

Thanks for all the advice Steve. I am intimidated by anything that isn't hanging off the outside of the engine by a few bolts. If I have to open it up, then it will just sit forever waiting for me to get brave. I am not blowing off your advice, just trying to make sure I haven't missed something easy.

Ah... the 124 Special radiator search, I know it well. I searched high and low for a 124 Special with auto transmission radiator and found nothing. The non-auto versions have the input and output ports reversed IIRC, at least I know the 124 TC rads I saw were reversed. The radiator location in my 124 Special is pretty specific, there isn't any extra space in any direction. I thought about going with a Spider or Coupe non-auto radiator. Thomas at MWB was kind enough to check the dimensions on various 124 series rads, but the measurements did not match up to the stock rad I have. :(
 
124 special T (twin cam engine) have the top inlet port to the right side of the car, the OHV engine cars have the inlet port to the left side of the car.

Auto radiator lower tank... well it's simply a matter of sweating the lower tank and internal trans fluid pipework off the bottom of your old radiator, and re soldering it onto a new unit... the internal pipework snakes back and forth a couple of times, but is contained wholly in the lower tank.

Or dispense with the 'in the radiator lower tank' unit altogether and fit a supplementary cooler out just in front of the radiator itself.

ebay italy has NOS original radiators ranging from 110 euro to 200 euro http://www.ebay.it/itm/RADIATORE-NUOVO-ORIGINALE-FIAT-124-SPECIAL-/232326008352

to remove the head, it's really comes down to a few fuel lines / carb linkage / ignition leads /temp sender wire / top radiator hose... then the four nuts between the exhaust manifold and the front pipe (soak these in penetrating fluid for a few days beforehand) remove the rocker cover and undo the four (might be five) nuts that hold the rocker assembly to the head and lift it out of the way... and then undoing the ten head bolts.

Lift the head off complete with inlet / exhaust manifolds still attached (it's really the easiest way) the pushrods will stay in the block, but to reassemble they should be removed... punch 8 holes in a piece of cardboard with an arrow to the front and slip the pushrods into the holes to keep them in order.

once the head is off clean the gasket faces and look really well at the gasket... my bet is one of the small steam holes near number 4 cylinder has corroded a little and or you'll see some evidence on the gasket fire rings showing water ingress... very clean piston tops or some slight pitting in the head combustion chamber are absolute giveaways that water has been getting in.

SteveC
 
Steve,

When I get some time I will put my endoscope into the cylinders and see if I can get some pictures of the piston tops. I didn't think of that till you were describing what I might see if I pulled the head. I haven't had the camera long and forget to use it.

I think I may also need to pull the water pump and inspect it, or maybe shove the camera in there too. Here is my thinking. The rad fan cycles, so the rad is hot and the fans cools it. The cap feels firmly seated and the level in the overflow tank rises when hot and lowers again when cool. The heater works great and I can lower the engine temp by turning it on. When the engine is cold and I remove the cap, the rad is completely full. So could it be that the pump is not circulating water quickly enough? I guess it could be crusty in the engine passages too, but the coolant stays so clean I find it hard to believe.
 
I took my usual test drive circuit (local traffic and a bit of highway) with the fan jumpered to be "always on" yesterday. The gauge did not get as close to the red as usual and did seem to come back down a little quicker. Regardless, it is a band aid, not a fix. I just wanted to see what happened with somewhat cooler water coming from the rad in slower local traffic. Since it behaved a little better, I am sure that's why the car was wired like that when I got it.

I pulled the plugs today to have a look. Here are some pictures of the piston tops with a $12 endoscope. I had a heck of a time trying to get anything in focus. This camera worked really well in the very clean 1500 in my X. Perhaps because the lighting was better with the freshly cleaned parts reflecting the tiny lights on the camera.

I tried to find a picture at a vendor site to see what it should look like, but C. Obert and MWB don't show a 1438 OHV piston (or I didn't find it). I did see pistons for the 1197 that looked to be flat topped, so hopefully they are the same design for the 14. Anyway...

Cylinder 1 (counting front the radiator end):
cylinder_1_a.jpg cylinder_1_b.jpg
Cylinder 2
cylinder_2_b.jpg cylinder_2_c.jpg
Cylinder 3
cylinder_3_a.jpg cylinder_3_c.jpg
Cylinder 4
cylinder_4_b.jpg cylinder_4_g.jpg

They certainly are not pretty, but I don't see any that look steam cleaned. The tops are pitted though, as opposed to smooth. Cylinder 3 looks a little oily or maybe its gas, no smoke cloud on startups or while running. At first I was a little worried about the shiny edges with a shiny outer ring as well, but after looking closer I think I am seeing the edge of the piston top reflected in the cylinder wall.
 
Long (30mi hwy/local road) test drive today playing with the oil leak, but I wanted to note the the temp issue seems a bit better. I was able to make it almost to the end of my test drive before I felt the need to turn the heater on. Once the heater starts flowing coolant the temp gauge slowly backs off its high. It never got to the red, but pretty close.

I was reading all the POs doco I got with the car and one of the shops that worked on it said that the radiator is too small. :) I get the same feeling, but I am not sure what to do about it. Anyway, it was 90F today and humid. So I think it was a good test. For what I use this car for, i.e. usually short drives, I think it will be OK.
 
OK. Today I tried resetting the timing to be a couple degrees advanced. I had checked it a few weeks ago and it was set lower than I thought at around 5 degrees. The manual says 10 so that's where I thought I set it last time. When I got the car warmed up and checked it this morning it was maybe at 8 degrees. I set it to 12-ish and went for my long test drive. The car ran fine and did seem to run cooler and recover from the highs quicker. however, there are too many outdoor temperature variables to make apples to apples. I tell myself I am making progress because I could get it almost into the red when the outdoor temps were 50-55F earlier this spring. Now it is 70-90F throughout the week and temp is better behaved.

I never needed to turn on the heater today. The last few drives I have actually parked it and let it idle for a few minutes after the drive. That would invite disaster previously, now it just moves the needle up towards the red, but not scary close.
 
I hauled the 124 to the MWB Open House over the weekend and cruised it to the various events. Highway and local road traffic, stop lights, etc. The car still goes up towards the red zone, but never gets real close to it. It will eventually return towards the center of the gauge, but still tilts over towards the hot side.

I just took my long test drive her ein STL where it is 93F and humid right now. The car behaved just the same. I think that is good news. It heads for the red when I get off the hwy and hit a light, but recovers in a few minutes to just above center. There is a long, steep hill near the end of the drive that pushes the temp up as well. It takes longer to recover on local roads, but the needle had dropped to just above center by the time I backed the car into the garage. It did climb towards the red as I left it idle, but it stopped at about the highest point I see during my testing.

It appears tweaking the timing from 10 to 12 did indeed help. The question is: How far can it be advanced? Will a tiny bit more advance produce a slightly better result? Can I advance it to a point where I can chill beer?
 
If you advance it another 360 degrees I am certain it will hit ludicrous speed...
 
It almost sounds like a supect temp gauge.

Might do a temprary macanical temp gauge just to give you something to compair to (lost cost one's are not much). you could just poke the sending cable though the firewall install it in the head and just get it on the dash/passenger seat/ anywhere. Just so you can see some real numbers along side your factory gauge.
 
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