Turbo systems for X1/9's

[speedy fiat]

I should have mentioned that the effectiveness of the upgrades to the ecu have to be matched to the turbo and injector capability and well as the intake and exhaust etc. Otherwise it very likely end badly. If you think of a naturally aspirated engine you can get another 10-20% output without too much trouble, above that the costs rise steeply. Turbo engines are no different, but lend themselves to "cheap" ham fisted tuning that give short lived huge power gains by wacking up the boost

 

[Dr.Jeff]

the upgrades to the ecu have to be matched to the turbo and injector capability and well as the intake and exhaust etc.

Exactly. That's why I asked if the aftermarket chip is programmable, to help adapt it to whatever set-up it might be run with. Great info, thanks.
Not sure why I was thinking the UT Mk2 had the ECU as part of the AFM. Was there a different version like that, or maybe that's the Punto GT or something? Unless you are referring to the ICU (ignition)? Not important, just curious.

 

[speedy fiat]

I'd agree. Same for air to air coolers for that matter.
Looking forward to some pics and details of your set-up. The next major task for my project will be to choose the engine management ECU. Lots of good choices on the market these days, each having its benefits and deficits.

Finally got the car back from the garage. Attached are a couple of pictures of my turbo set up. I decided early on to lose the boot space to accommodate the various extra bits and not over clutter the engine bay and so try to keep temps in check.You can see the charge cooler below where the afm would normally sit, the pipe run from the turbo is kept nice a short. The air intake is down near one of the side intakes, one drawback for a rhd car is that it tends to collect a lot of muck off the nearside of the road.
In what was the boot are the fuel pumps, swirl pot, charge cooler pump, header tank and the boost control. The latter is not just vacuum controlled but also linked to the ECU.
The car is now running 175hp instead of 190hp but the spread of the power is now much wider. Previously with the original ecu at 3500rpm we had 75hp and 110ftlb we now have 110 and 160.
One nice touch is that the oil pressures have been logged across the rev range and if they drop by a certain percentage (due to an iminent problem) the engine will cut, and, very importantly, far faster than you could react from the pressure warning light and gauge. And your right in thinking there is no dump valve.

oil

 

[Dr.Jeff]

Excellent result with the revised power curve. Did you get a new ECU, off hand I don't recall what you had before.
I will be using the trunk (boot) for lots of extra stuff also.
No dump valve? Wastegate or BOV? How is it set up without one?

 

[speedy fiat]

The ECU is a 'Maxx'. The lack of dump valve was a suggestion from the tuning guy as a way of keeping boost pressures up and so throttle response. Any excess pressure finding it's way back through the turbo wastegate (not sure of the exact process), it makes a fluttering noise on over run. This is quite a common arrangement in motorsports, but does have a downside in the stress it puts on the turbo, but then it's motorsport. If the turbo is of good quality and condition I doubt, given my usage, it will be a significantly shorter life.

 

[rachaeljf]

The "wastegate chatter" is the excess pressure stalling the compressor blades. This uses up the fatigue life of the compressor so yes, you can expect a shortened life!

Are you able to log intake air temperatures? I was wondering how well those PWR chargecoolers work.

 

[speedy fiat]

There is an intake temp on the throttle body and you can log the temperatures. The PWR cooler is , if I remember correctly, is the smallest one they do, however it will happily keep the inlet temp down to sub 45c when the car is moving even in the 30c weather we have been having.
All of the things I have done are as a result of trying to go faster in competition and I love playing with the technology. For a fast road car you needn't do half of what I've done and save yourself a good few ££ or $$ at the same time, but I always find it useful to know what others have done (good and bad) so as to inform your own decisions, hence always happy to share with like minded folk

 

[Dr.Jeff]

The "MAXX" ECU's is one of the brands I've been looking at. Another of the fairly recent offerings on the market with a lot of features/technology for a great price. In my case there are no plans to do track/competition events so the turbo is just a means to add a little drivability. Since I'm trying to keep the whole project on a limited budget, I've been considering the entry level products from those companies. Impressive what they offer.

 

[Dr.Jeff]

As I slowly acquire the various components needed to build the turbo system, I finally have everything from the air filter to the intake manifold (less the ECU). So I put it all together as a mock-up for a test-fit and general evaluation. I like how it is turning out. While things were assembled I did a pressure test ("boost leak test"). Fortunately the things you might expect to be leak prone (blow-off valve, intercooler, etc) did not leak at all. Unfortunately the things you would not expect to leak (hose joints) had a couple minor seepage leaks. The T-bolt clamps I received were one size larger than what I ordered. So they were near their smaller limits to clamp the hoses tight. A couple of them were seeping boost pressure, and I'm sure that is a function of having the wrong size clamps. The supplier has refunded my purchase and is sending the correct size clamps (I hope). But they are currently out of stock so it will be a couple weeks to get them.

Hopefully with the right clamps there will be no more leaks and the system is good. I need to make a couple mounting brackets, finish the exhaust, and add a couple sensors along with the ECU. I have not dedicated enough time to researching ECU options, so I still don't know which one I will go with. Some have certain features better than others, and vice versa. I'm hoping that one will have everything I want in a single package.

 

[lookforjoe]

Finally got the car back from the garage. Attached are a couple of pictures of my turbo set up. View attachment 13016

Nice work!

Just curious, given that you had decided to use the boot space as part of the 'bay', why not rework the throttle neck of the plenum to face rearward & get rid of much of the plumbing between the TB and compressor inlet?

EDIT - maybe they have compressor covers with the surge venting - I used this PTE6262 on my old Volvo. I still had dump valve though. The shock waves are really bad for the compressor & thrust plate, etc. Especially on rapid throttle lift.

 

[lookforjoe]

I'm thinking perhaps the stock X1/9 electronic (VR) distributor could do the same thing. By modifying the trigger (reluctor) wheel to only have 1 post (i.e. one trigger per dizzy rotation), it would provide the same basic function as your "cam phase sensor" does...giving one pulse for every four rotations of the crank. And it mounts/drives the same way; at the dizzy hole and off the aux shaft. So its level of accuracy, reliability, etc would be no different. I just need to find out from the aftermarket ECU makers if the type of signal it provides is correct. The specs for most of them say they work with hall sensor and reluctor type signals, but I need to confirm everything with them (unfortunately not a lot of detail on their websites).

The old VR signal of the X distributor is not as usable as the Hall signal - my understanding is that it has to be converted from analog, and is not as accurate at low speed. If your ECU has software / hardware to utilize the signal, then it could be considered. I would think most modern setups would use Hall simply because the solid state setup is more reliable than the coil windings/tooth wheel/shaft play variables in the stock setup. New VR sensors may differ in construction (more durable?) than what was used in the 70's/80's.

 

[Dr.Jeff]

If your ECU has software / hardware to utilize the signal, then it could be considered.

Agree. Some of the aftermarket ECU's (and software) allow either type - VR or Hall. That would depend on which brand is chosen. Although I think more of them are designed for a Hall signal.

But the earlier post by "ashmowerman" suggesting an easy conversion of the Fiat distributor to use a VW Hall system is a good one. Then the Fiat dizzy could be used as a cam position sensor and have a Hall signal (which it sounds like is a better choice). There are aftermarket ECU's out there that only use a distributor signal for both the crank and cam signals, to control everything (fuel and spark). Not that I would want to do that. But it should be acceptable to use the dizzy for the cam signal; on the ECU's I'm looking at, the cam position is only used to signal what cycle the crank is on...to know which TDC is the #1 cylinder...so it isn't as critical as the crank sensor signal.

 

[rachaeljf]

A cam phase sensor is only needed for sequential injection and/or coil-on-plug ignition. The Punto GT uses the sohc engine with Bosch Motronic M2.7 wasted spark and sequential injection using a cam phase sensor that is a direct swap for the traditional sohc block mounted dizzy. Sequential injection is really not needed for us tinkerers, it is needed by the manufacturers to meet ever stricter emission rules, and only operates at idle or low engine speeds. The Punto GT will run perfectly happily with a failed cam phase sensor - although it will throw a fault code of course.

 

[Dr.Jeff]

A cam phase sensor is only needed for sequential injection and/or coil-on-plug ignition.

I completely agree, thanks Rachael. Although it seems the makers of the latest aftermarket ECU's say it is recommended (or even required in same cases) to have a cam sensor along with a crank sensor. So I'm not sure if the design/software they use has different parameters than earlier ones like Motronic? Frankly I am still learning a lot about all this. I need to contact a few of those companies and get more info, but I'd like to learn more in general so I can ask the right questions. In November I will see several of them at the SEMA Show and will try to find out more.
Basically my thought was to turn the distributor into a sensor like the Punto GT uses (if one is needed).

 

[Dr.Jeff]

For any of you that have a turbo installed on an engine that uses the X's alloy oil (sump) pan.
Did you drill and tap the aluminum pan to install the oil drain-line fitting? Or used a "bulkhead" type fitting? Or weld the fitting onto the pan?
If you drilled and tapped the pan, have there been any issues with oil leakage at the fitting? And have you taken any extra steps to assure it remains in position and sealed (backed it up with a nut inside, or added sealants, or other)?
Thanks for your feedback.

 

[MikeHynes]

I have one with the fitting welded in, I also have an oil pan with an oil temp sender bung that was drilled, tapped, backed up with a jam nut, then epoxied in. No leaks, no problems.

 

[speedy fiat]

I'm much the same as Mike. A generic push on brass hose fitting onto a bulkhead fitting through the sump, fixed with a couple of nuts and dowty washers. No issues at all

 

[Dr.Jeff]

Thanks guys. The sump's wall is only 3 to 4 mm thick cast aluminum, so I wasn't sure how well it would support a fitting on its own.
I went ahead and drilled/tapped it for a 1/2" NPT. Put a standard barb (push-on) hose fitting through, then backed that up with a NPT nut. With some thread/fitting sealant it should be good. If it leaks then I'll pull the pan back off and weld on a fitting.

 

[hotx19]

Here is my setup in my race car could be modified slightly for a road car I suppose
Intercooler is mounted in the rear where the muffler originally was
The motor is 1.3 uno turbo it produces just under 300hp to the wheels
I'm using a motec m84 ecu logging air temp before and after cooler as well as many other things
Boost is set at 21psi and
The intercooler its self is from a Nissan GT-R and fits with a little modification
On the race track inlet air temp is around 15-20deg above ambient
The car can run in 40deg plus track days without an issue
The logging of temps has showed us that the intercooler and positioning of it are actually working very well
Hope this is helpful
John

 

[Dr.Jeff]

Thanks John, that's useful info.
21psi is pretty high boost.
Do you know the approximate size for the intercooler (length/width/thickness dimensions)?
Is the engine stock internally?