What did you do to your 850 today?
- Thread starter Jim McKenzie
- Start date
johnt
Daily Driver
Sold the transaxle out of my car so I had to remove the whole drivetrain. I sometimes sell parts off my cars since they are tested and help pay for other projects. I only do this if I have spare parts such as a couple spare transaxles.
The replacement I plan to build will have more improvements. Maybe an oil pump to get oil to the front input shaft bearing, Simca 1000 R/P, and a neutral to 1st synchro.
The current transaxle has a Sedan R/P with modified quick-apply syncro in second gear.
I thought the 7/39 sedan ratio would be good for a street car; but at 70 mph the engine is screaming at nearly 6000 rpm with 175/60's in the rear. Using low profile tires defeats the purpose of using the sedan R/P. I may try running taller tires with a sedan R/P again or find a Simca 1000 R/P.
Going thru the gearbox tonight to replace the front input shaft bearing since it was making a little noise. I'm not using Pennzoil synchromesh in the transaxle again. I just found out it's a 30 weight which I think helped to shorten the life of bearing. Next fill will be Sta-lube GL-4 which is 85-90 wt.
The front input shaft bearing is the only bearing I've ever seen wear-out. It doesn't get enough oil since it's located above oil level and covered by 4th gear with nothing to splash oil on it. Here the mainshaft is shown dropped inside the case since the rear input mainshaft bearing is still attached. The rear bearing is an interference fit, so I don't remove it unless I need to. The front mainshaft bearing was dissembled to find the extent of wear on the bearing surfaces. Only minor pitting was found but enough that Pennzoil Synchromesh could not overcome. I've seen worse bearing conditions using 80-90 wt gear lube that were not as noisy. I just didn't know Pennzoil was a 30 wt oil. Still Learning.
The replacement I plan to build will have more improvements. Maybe an oil pump to get oil to the front input shaft bearing, Simca 1000 R/P, and a neutral to 1st synchro.
The current transaxle has a Sedan R/P with modified quick-apply syncro in second gear.
I thought the 7/39 sedan ratio would be good for a street car; but at 70 mph the engine is screaming at nearly 6000 rpm with 175/60's in the rear. Using low profile tires defeats the purpose of using the sedan R/P. I may try running taller tires with a sedan R/P again or find a Simca 1000 R/P.
Going thru the gearbox tonight to replace the front input shaft bearing since it was making a little noise. I'm not using Pennzoil synchromesh in the transaxle again. I just found out it's a 30 weight which I think helped to shorten the life of bearing. Next fill will be Sta-lube GL-4 which is 85-90 wt.
The front input shaft bearing is the only bearing I've ever seen wear-out. It doesn't get enough oil since it's located above oil level and covered by 4th gear with nothing to splash oil on it. Here the mainshaft is shown dropped inside the case since the rear input mainshaft bearing is still attached. The rear bearing is an interference fit, so I don't remove it unless I need to. The front mainshaft bearing was dissembled to find the extent of wear on the bearing surfaces. Only minor pitting was found but enough that Pennzoil Synchromesh could not overcome. I've seen worse bearing conditions using 80-90 wt gear lube that were not as noisy. I just didn't know Pennzoil was a 30 wt oil. Still Learning.
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Got 'er going again!
Finished the replacecement of the blown head gasket, which included extracting a broken head bolt, and replacing a damaged pushrod, plus de-coking the pistons and head, replacing various gaskets, and eliminating an unused vacuum port on the intake manifold.
You can only imagine my delight when it fired up immediately, idled smoothly, and ran perfectly on a short run around the block!
Now, for some progressively longer drives to make sure it's REALLY fixed before I can get comfortable driving it routinely again.
Tell you what, I can't imagine a better car for an amateur like me to improve wrenching skills on. A simple and rugged machine.
Finished the replacecement of the blown head gasket, which included extracting a broken head bolt, and replacing a damaged pushrod, plus de-coking the pistons and head, replacing various gaskets, and eliminating an unused vacuum port on the intake manifold.
You can only imagine my delight when it fired up immediately, idled smoothly, and ran perfectly on a short run around the block!
Now, for some progressively longer drives to make sure it's REALLY fixed before I can get comfortable driving it routinely again.
Tell you what, I can't imagine a better car for an amateur like me to improve wrenching skills on. A simple and rugged machine.
A good rear-engine Fiat day.
With blown head gasket successfully repaired (including surprise removal of busted head bolt), celebrated by driving the snot out of the 850 Spider with the DCFiats club on their "Four County Run". Managed to keep up with the "big" Fiats (even on the uphills!), put 250 miles on the car, and got 37 mpg and 100 spm (smiles per mile) for the day.
Can't beat it with a stick.
Now, per various sage "tech tips", am re-torquing the heads, changing the oil and adjusting the valves. Life is good.
With blown head gasket successfully repaired (including surprise removal of busted head bolt), celebrated by driving the snot out of the 850 Spider with the DCFiats club on their "Four County Run". Managed to keep up with the "big" Fiats (even on the uphills!), put 250 miles on the car, and got 37 mpg and 100 spm (smiles per mile) for the day.
Can't beat it with a stick.
Now, per various sage "tech tips", am re-torquing the heads, changing the oil and adjusting the valves. Life is good.
Twice lucky
Retorqued the head bolts (along with the exhaust manifold nuts, oil pan bolts, and a few other things), adjusted the valves, changed the oil, and she fired right up, running nice and smoothly.
Learned that the valves were pretty far out of whack (all of them were too open, the intakes more so than the exhausts, surprisingly), and most importantly (this is a lesson for all of us), the head bolts had loosened up a fair amount in only 300 miles of driving since replacing the head gasket.
Also, a subtle thing, the previous valve adjustment I had done used the "2-step shortcut" method I had read about somewhere, but this time I used the Fiat factory manual method (putting one set of valves "at balance" while adjusting another pair, etc.) and I suspect this is more accurate than the shortcut method.
Most importantly, listen to Obert's advice -- re-torque the head bolts 300-500 miles after replacing the head gasket, and again after maybe 3K miles (I will certainly do that).
Retorqued the head bolts (along with the exhaust manifold nuts, oil pan bolts, and a few other things), adjusted the valves, changed the oil, and she fired right up, running nice and smoothly.
Learned that the valves were pretty far out of whack (all of them were too open, the intakes more so than the exhausts, surprisingly), and most importantly (this is a lesson for all of us), the head bolts had loosened up a fair amount in only 300 miles of driving since replacing the head gasket.
Also, a subtle thing, the previous valve adjustment I had done used the "2-step shortcut" method I had read about somewhere, but this time I used the Fiat factory manual method (putting one set of valves "at balance" while adjusting another pair, etc.) and I suspect this is more accurate than the shortcut method.
Most importantly, listen to Obert's advice -- re-torque the head bolts 300-500 miles after replacing the head gasket, and again after maybe 3K miles (I will certainly do that).
First autocross
Drove the 850 in its first autocross on Saturday, got 8 runs in for the day. What a blast! Great handling little car, even on mediocre street tires (Sumitomo HTR200s). Hour+ drive just getting to and from the autox location, managed to cruise at 70+ mph with no problems. Guess I didn't mess the engine up too badly after all.
Drove the 850 in its first autocross on Saturday, got 8 runs in for the day. What a blast! Great handling little car, even on mediocre street tires (Sumitomo HTR200s). Hour+ drive just getting to and from the autox location, managed to cruise at 70+ mph with no problems. Guess I didn't mess the engine up too badly after all.
kmead
Old enough to know better
I finally opened up the garage, took all the crap out from behind the 850, charged the battery, reinstalled the alternator (which still isn't charging grrr) tightened the belts, started it and backed it out of the garage.
Let it idle for a few minutes and drove it around town.
It was great to get reacquainted with the Coupe, they are slow but very involving. It definitely likes to rev.
So on the long list of to dos: go back through the charging system (which I modified to use an alternator twenty years ago) seems like it needs some massaging, the front brakes seem to be dragging as it definitely is not accelerating like it should and it doesn't seem to want to roll. Hopefully not a sign of the master cylinder corroding up again.
I have been so busy with work, house and kids this summer that my cars have definitely suffered. This coming weekend we have the 28th St Metro Cruise and our FLU group meets up a few miles from my house so it will definitely be an outing. At the end of September there is another FLU event which is a driving event which I hope to have the 850 in decent enough shape to actually drive it.
Let it idle for a few minutes and drove it around town.
It was great to get reacquainted with the Coupe, they are slow but very involving. It definitely likes to rev.
So on the long list of to dos: go back through the charging system (which I modified to use an alternator twenty years ago) seems like it needs some massaging, the front brakes seem to be dragging as it definitely is not accelerating like it should and it doesn't seem to want to roll. Hopefully not a sign of the master cylinder corroding up again.
I have been so busy with work, house and kids this summer that my cars have definitely suffered. This coming weekend we have the 28th St Metro Cruise and our FLU group meets up a few miles from my house so it will definitely be an outing. At the end of September there is another FLU event which is a driving event which I hope to have the 850 in decent enough shape to actually drive it.
kmead
Old enough to know better
Enjoyed the Grand Rapids Metro Cruise
Drove the few miles down to the WMFLU Metro Cruise parking spot. Enjoyed a day with a variety of Fiat, Alfa and a stray Ferrari 512BB.
Lots of fun and great sight seeing. Its always amazing to see what people will do with cars.
Drove the few miles down to the WMFLU Metro Cruise parking spot. Enjoyed a day with a variety of Fiat, Alfa and a stray Ferrari 512BB.
Lots of fun and great sight seeing. Its always amazing to see what people will do with cars.
Jim McKenzie
1972 850 Spider
similar here
I replaced the alternator and both belts (alt to crank, alt to pump) today and tried to fire her up. No luck, she cranks hard (thanks to MWB for the refurb alt!) but no start.
Had help from two guys from the Cape Cod British Car Club, one of whom not only owned an 850 Spider once, but sill had the original Shop Manual, and one's son who was a mechanic. We rebuilt the DICA 30 and while it almost started, no luck. It had flooded (stuck float and corroded needle) and got some gas in the crankcase...which now means an oil change to boot.
Tomorrow new spark plugs, (looking at Denso S22PR-A7 Iridium) some additional tools, and maybe will look at a Pertronix for the Marelli. A visit to Harbor Freight is in order methinks.
Hopeful my fouled plugs are the issue. I'll change them tomorrow and see. Will gap if I can start her up once.
Not sure if a Pertronix is made for the 850 (as with the 131, 124 and X) but if not may need to look at Allison Automotive distributorless system. Just kinda $$$$.
I replaced the alternator and both belts (alt to crank, alt to pump) today and tried to fire her up. No luck, she cranks hard (thanks to MWB for the refurb alt!) but no start.
Had help from two guys from the Cape Cod British Car Club, one of whom not only owned an 850 Spider once, but sill had the original Shop Manual, and one's son who was a mechanic. We rebuilt the DICA 30 and while it almost started, no luck. It had flooded (stuck float and corroded needle) and got some gas in the crankcase...which now means an oil change to boot.
Tomorrow new spark plugs, (looking at Denso S22PR-A7 Iridium) some additional tools, and maybe will look at a Pertronix for the Marelli. A visit to Harbor Freight is in order methinks.
Hopeful my fouled plugs are the issue. I'll change them tomorrow and see. Will gap if I can start her up once.
Not sure if a Pertronix is made for the 850 (as with the 131, 124 and X) but if not may need to look at Allison Automotive distributorless system. Just kinda $$$$.
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kmead
Old enough to know better
Pertronix makes several different units for the 850, which one you use depends on whether you have a Marelli or Ducellier unit. My Coupe has a Marelli unit. I bought a 751-9MR-LS3 IGNITOR II for MARELLI 4CYL which doesn't use an added item to the shaft, it instead senses the lobe on the distributor shaft. The unit I have can be used on my 850 or my 124 Coupe which has the block mounted Marelli distributor.
I bought mine from JEGS, for whatever reason it was very inexpensive at the time (I bought it a month and a half ago) the price has since gone up there but I have seen it as low as 77 on Ebay of late. I haven't priced the Ducellier versions which tend to be cheaper in general than the lobe sensing versions.
http://vintageperformance.com/retrorockets/fiat.htm
I haven't yet installed it as I have a starter (and an alternator) issue right now. Ugh
I bought mine from JEGS, for whatever reason it was very inexpensive at the time (I bought it a month and a half ago) the price has since gone up there but I have seen it as low as 77 on Ebay of late. I haven't priced the Ducellier versions which tend to be cheaper in general than the lobe sensing versions.
http://vintageperformance.com/retrorockets/fiat.htm
I haven't yet installed it as I have a starter (and an alternator) issue right now. Ugh
Jim McKenzie
1972 850 Spider
thanks Karl!
you saved me from a fairly expensive mistake. I looked at the unit on your link and it didn't seem/look right, so I carefully (this time) checked what I had thought all along was a Marelli distributor, and instead to my shock I actually have the Ducellier 4290A unit (!).
I just ordered the Pert and the flamethrower coil from Amazon for the Ducellier, got a great price too, just over a hundred for both. I'll let you know results
Thanks again!
you saved me from a fairly expensive mistake. I looked at the unit on your link and it didn't seem/look right, so I carefully (this time) checked what I had thought all along was a Marelli distributor, and instead to my shock I actually have the Ducellier 4290A unit (!).
I just ordered the Pert and the flamethrower coil from Amazon for the Ducellier, got a great price too, just over a hundred for both. I'll let you know results
Thanks again!
Jim McKenzie
1972 850 Spider
I'm replying to my own post
So I now have the VR1 oil, the Iridiums, the Pertronix and associated Flamethrower coil, and a brand spanking new gap tool.
Tomorrow, I am leading a long cruise/drive to Dennis for the Cape Cod British Car Club and Sunday is our big event/show at the Heritage Museum in Sandwich. I'll be parking cars, selling t-shirts and at the end, picking up trash Not entering my X, though they do have a category for it..."non British marque 1970-1980". Rather just work it.
I'm also hopeful on bribing two of my new mechanic friends to come help me yet again (3rd time!). Got them extendible mirrors and magnetic screw picker-uppers. That and coffee is the plan Hopefully driving the 850 on Monday!
So I now have the VR1 oil, the Iridiums, the Pertronix and associated Flamethrower coil, and a brand spanking new gap tool.
Tomorrow, I am leading a long cruise/drive to Dennis for the Cape Cod British Car Club and Sunday is our big event/show at the Heritage Museum in Sandwich. I'll be parking cars, selling t-shirts and at the end, picking up trash
Not entering my X, though they do have a category for it..."non British marque 1970-1980". Rather just work it.I'm also hopeful on bribing two of my new mechanic friends to come help me yet again (3rd time!). Got them extendible mirrors and magnetic screw picker-uppers. That and coffee is the plan
Hopefully driving the 850 on Monday!
kmead
Old enough to know better
Hope it all works out. Let me know how you like the igniter. We tried a XR700 system in a 124 and were immensely frustrated with it.
I hope to install my new alternator mount and give my starter a good jolt to be able to also install the Igniter in my Coupe. Been abut frustrating not having driven it even once this year.
I hope to install my new alternator mount and give my starter a good jolt to be able to also install the Igniter in my Coupe. Been abut frustrating not having driven it even once this year.
Jim McKenzie
1972 850 Spider
success and failure!
I'm often a half-empty cup sort of person, but I'm pretty happy today!
Yesterday Bob Vogel and Charlie Frink from the British Car Club came over and we swapped out the coil with a Flamethrower (the black 40,000 volt one) and changed the plugs with the Denso Iridiums.
I wanted to change the oil but couldn't find a 12 MM allen wrench (now ordered)
We did the plugs first, removed the carbon fouled Autolites and with the new plugs the car did in fact start and run for a few seconds. That's the first time in two years it has started. It sounded great!!!
We then swapped the coil, and found I ordered the wrong part for the Ducellier 4290A...I got the UD 141 but needed to get the 142 LS, a mirror-image of the 141. Working on that now. Oil change may occur tonight.
Oh, and in X1/9 news my car took second place at the British Cape Cod Car Club Legends Weekend, a three day event with a judged show. MY main competitors in the weirdly-designed class were a stunning Lotus Éclat, a red/tan Ferrari 308 GTS that looked perfect to me, a yellow TVR that actually looked like a big X1/9, a brand new Jaguar F-Type and a few cars that were fairly run down daily drivers.
Not bad
I'm often a half-empty cup sort of person, but I'm pretty happy today!
Yesterday Bob Vogel and Charlie Frink from the British Car Club came over and we swapped out the coil with a Flamethrower (the black 40,000 volt one) and changed the plugs with the Denso Iridiums.
I wanted to change the oil but couldn't find a 12 MM allen wrench (now ordered)
We did the plugs first, removed the carbon fouled Autolites and with the new plugs the car did in fact start and run for a few seconds. That's the first time in two years it has started. It sounded great!!!
We then swapped the coil, and found I ordered the wrong part for the Ducellier 4290A...I got the UD 141 but needed to get the 142 LS, a mirror-image of the 141. Working on that now. Oil change may occur tonight.
Oh, and in X1/9 news my car took second place at the British Cape Cod Car Club Legends Weekend, a three day event with a judged show. MY main competitors in the weirdly-designed class were a stunning Lotus Éclat, a red/tan Ferrari 308 GTS that looked perfect to me, a yellow TVR that actually looked like a big X1/9, a brand new Jaguar F-Type and a few cars that were fairly run down daily drivers.
Not bad
kmead
Old enough to know better
Frustrating isn't it when you don't have the right parts.
I have had trouble with Autolite plugs in the past with my Fiats, I have tended to stay with NGKs as a result and had few issues with them.
Amazing what folks have done with the cars they are passionate about, the eclectic mix you were competing against are a perfect example. I am sure folks think we are just as crazy as we see them being :headbang:
I have had trouble with Autolite plugs in the past with my Fiats, I have tended to stay with NGKs as a result and had few issues with them.
Amazing what folks have done with the cars they are passionate about, the eclectic mix you were competing against are a perfect example. I am sure folks think we are just as crazy as we see them being :headbang:
