Why do you think Fiat is not doing well in the USA?

WantAnX1/9 said:
Billions invested to re-enter the US market, but with limited success.

What do you all think are the reasons Fiat may again pull out of the US market entirely?

What would it take to turn it all around?

Sales are in the tank...Only 15k units sold in USA in '18.

I would love to have a re-imagined X 1/9 based upon the 500 Abarth mechanicals. A guy can dream, I guess...

https://www.cnbc.com/2019/07/05/why-fiats-classic-italian-cars-are-struggling-in-the-us.html
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To be a successful car company, you must have product. FIAT came back to the USA in 2012 with one vehicle that was overdue for replacement before it got here....a warmed over and federalized version of a 2007 FIAT 500. They didn't have the money to develop a replacement, and they STILL don't have the money. FCA's full size cars are still riding on Mercedes-Benz LX platforms and architectures from the mid-2000s.

To develop product, you have to spend LOADS of $$$ on development.

The Agnelli family (in the form of shareholders of EXOR), pulls waaaay too much money out of this business, money that should be developing product.

It will eventually DIE. Maybe sooner than one would expect.
 
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Dan Sarandrea (Phila) said:
To be a successful car company, you must have product. FIAT came back to the USA in 2012 with one vehicle that was overdue for replacement before it got here....a warmed over and federalized version of a 2007 FIAT 500. They didn't have the money to develop a replacement, and they STILL don't have the money. FCA's full size cars are still riding on Mercedes-Benz LX platforms and architectures from the mid-2000s.

To develop product, you have to spend LOADS of $$$ on development.

The Agnelli family (in the form of shareholders of EXOR), pulls waaaay too much money out of this business, money that should be developing product.

It will eventually DIE. Maybe sooner than one would expect.
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...or be absorbed by some nameless Chinese consortium.

*shudders*

The Agnellis are running the FIAT Group into the ground. Guys are clueless, and it is a tragedy.
 
My son has a 500. He had to replace the engine at 116K km and then 3K later, he had to replace the transmission. They may look nice and drive nice, but with reliability like that, I wouldn't buy one at any price. In fact, I wouldn't want one even if someone paid me to take it off their hands. Sad!

The "Fix it again Tony" reputation lives on...



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NEG said:
Well the Fiat group face some challenges for sure. https://europe.autonews.com/automakers/fiat-chrysler-targets-return-profit-europe-q4
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This excerpt from that article sort of proves the "no product" point I was making:

"The three main EMEA-based brands of FCA — Fiat, Alfa Romeo and Maserati — have launched no new models since the Stelvio was unveiled at the Los Angeles Auto Show in November 2016. No launch is scheduled for this year, while a new battery electric Fiat 500 is expected to start production in 2020.

"As far as Alfa Romeo is concerned, FCA’s 2018-22 business plan, presented last June, envisioned the launch of seven new or refreshed models. In Geneva, Alfa showed a concept version of a compact crossover, the Tonale. No schedule has been given for the possible launch of a production version."​
 
myredracer said:
My son has a 500. He had to replace the engine at 116K km and then 3K later, he had to replace the transmission. They may look nice and drive nice, but with reliability like that, I wouldn't buy one at any price. In fact, I wouldn't want one even if someone paid me to take it off their hands. Sad!

The "Fix it again Tony" reputation lives on...
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At my buddy's auto repair shop, they've replaced two Honda v6 engines in the last month. Yet Hondas are considered to be Paragons of Reliability.

I got news for ya.....they ALL break. Especially if you beat on them.
 
Well a bit of googling brings up different surveys and studies that seem to support the JD Power survey...who knew!
 
I can’t think of an automotive brand for which I have not heard appalling stories of early large failures & a lot of them market heavily and have a tremendous “fan base”...for instance Mercedes, VW, Subaru, Mini, BMW. That’s not to say anything about any one person’s experience.

What interests me more is what secondary impact that a “failure” of Fiat in the US would have on the older Fiats in a market/interest/vendor support sense.
 
Fiataccompli said:
I can’t think of an automotive brand for which I have not heard appalling stories of early large failures & a lot of them market heavily and have a tremendous “fan base”...for instance Mercedes, VW, Subaru, Mini, BMW. That’s not to say anything about any one person’s experience.

What interests me more is what secondary impact that a “failure” of Fiat in the US would have on the older Fiats in a market/interest/vendor support sense.
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It would go very poorly for us, I would think...In terms of brand equity and how the brand is viewed by the US public at large.

Imagine what the Renault, Peugeot, Citroen guys must go through...we probably have it half as bad as they have it in the US.

Renault owners Club USA? They have, what, 80 members or something? The annual meeting is 60 cars? Ha ha!

I should know: I was seriously looking at getting a Renault 17 sportback in yellow, or a Matra Djet (very pricey!). Parts? Good luck!

Say what you will about the MG, Triumph, Jaguar guys...you can always get new parts, lots of support, and clubs are everywhere.

I also know this from direct experience.

I think the Italian classic cars (Fiat, Alfa, Lancia) are in the middle.

Ideally, in the USA, for classic car ownership support, clubs, parts availability it would be US muscle cars (of course), German cars, Brit cars, Italian cars, French cars...and any other oddballs like DeLorean, Bricklin, and Messerschmidt guys in a corner alone crying to themselves.

These are just my observations.
 
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central/southern European cars (orphaned in the US) get no love in the US. Renault? Peugeot? It still rather surprises me that people seem to appreciate similarly orphaned Brit cars like MG & Triumph. Oh well.

the old FLU was a cool experience, I thought. I don't think an in-the-moment corporate presence is necessary, but maybe I need to be educated about the values/priorities/operating keys of the current US Fiat club. I always found it rather amusing when someone at an auto parts store counter said, "Fiat, who makes that?"...and it didn't cause a problem. What DID cause a problem was an impossibility to find rubber suspension or brake parts that lasted more than a year, and a dwindling enough market that it became no longer worthwhile for a large group of vendors to supply things like exhaust headers, cams, wheels, etc & the current advent of products like that has been nice.
 
Regardless of reputation, I think the 500 is just too small for US buyers. We are not used to small cars and that is probably 90% of Fiat's problem here.
If gas was $7.00 a gallon that mind set might change...but I doubt it.

As to VW products, I was aware of their reliability issues but really wanted a modern GTI and made a deal with myself that if it turned out to be a disaster that I would sell it, even for a big loss, and move on with life. When you are an old man (is 70 old?) you can make deals like this with yourself! So far after about two years I'm still good.

I'm also aware, as expressed by several friends, that BMW, Mercedes and even Alfa have very poor reliability. My 2012 Kia Optima turbo has been just totally amazing. Let the Europeans design an car and then have the Asians build it.
 
Fiataccompli said:
central/southern European cars (orphaned in the US) get no love in the US. Renault? Peugeot? It still rather surprises me that people seem to appreciate similarly orphaned Brit cars like MG & Triumph. Oh well.

the old FLU was a cool experience, I thought. I don't think an in-the-moment corporate presence is necessary, but maybe I need to be educated about the values/priorities/operating keys of the current US Fiat club. I always found it rather amusing when someone at an auto parts store counter said, "Fiat, who makes that?"...and it didn't cause a problem. What DID cause a problem was an impossibility to find rubber suspension or brake parts that lasted more than a year, and a dwindling enough market that it became no longer worthwhile for a large group of vendors to supply things like exhaust headers, cams, wheels, etc & the current advent of products like that has been nice.
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I think part of it is the Brit cars, well, I think many more were made, and for whatever reason (lower revving engines vs OHC?), they tend to be easier to rebuild. Plus, a little thing called the British Motor Heritage Trust, which owns all of the tooling, and NOS parts supplies after British Leyland went bankrupt. New parts are also being made, right now.

I wish there were an Italian classic car equivalent. There is none.

I am deeply grateful for MWB, Obert, etc...so we can get 80-90% of the parts we need for the X 1/9...but new windshields? Interior parts other than carpets and seat covers? Gonna be a while waiting on eBay for NOS/used parts...

Yes. If I could not get parts for an X 1/9...I would not even consider one.

Might as well start trying to buy a Lamborghini Jalpa, same outcome. Car sits, waiting for parts that never come. Another example is a guy I knew who had a Honda S600 roadster. Great car...could not find the engine parts he needed! That car continued to sit. It is probably still sitting...
 
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WantAnX1/9 said:
I think part of it is the Brit cars, well, I think many more were made, and for whatever reason (lower revving engines vs OHC?), they tend to be easier to rebuild. Plus, a little thing called the British Motor Heritage Trust, which owns all of the tooling, and NOS parts supplies after British Leyland went bankrupt. New parts are also being made, right now.

I wish there were an Italian classic car equivalent. There is none.

I am deeply grateful for MWB, Obert, etc...so we can get 80-90% of the parts we need for the X 1/9...but new windshields? Interior parts other than carpets and seat covers? Gonna be a while waiting on eBay for NOS/used parts...

Yes. If I could not get parts for an X 1/9...I would not even consider one.

Might as well start trying to buy a Lamborghini Jalpa, same outcome. Car sits, waiting for parts that never come. Another example is a guy I knew who had a Honda S660. Great car...could not find the engine parts he needed! That car continued to sit. It is probably still sitting...
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Since it is a Bertone product, the Jalpa and the X share some stuff. Inside and outside door handles, some push button switches on the dash, headlight motors, etc. Have some part-spotting fun by watching Doug DeMuro's video on the Jalpa and look for exxie components :)
 
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Dan Sarandrea (Phila) said:
Since it is a Bertone product, the Jalpa and the X share some stuff. Inside and outside door handles, the door jamb hatch/trunk latches, push button switches on the dash. Have some part-spotting fun by watching Doug DeMuro's video on the Jalpa and look for exxie components :)
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I already knew about those parts...I think one of the Dinos, the GT4 (?) has the rear engine latch release as well?

I'm not a fan of Doug DeMuro. He is an annoying, spoiled, know-nothing blowhard charlatan...in my opinion.

I'd sooner burn down my house than give him clicks. lol

EDIT: Looks like I found my signature!
 
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WantAnX1/9 said:
I already knew about those parts...I think one of the Dinos, the GT4 (?) has the rear engine latch release as well?

I'm not a fan of Doug DeMuro. He is an annoying spoiled know nothing blowhard charlatan...in my opinion.

I'd sooner burn down my house than give him clicks. lol

EDIT: Looks like I found my signature!
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Yeah, he can be even "quirkier" than the "quirks" he "finds" on cars, but ya gotta admit that he pretty much has the "Jalpa first person test drive video" market cornered.
 
Dan Sarandrea (Phila) said:
Yeah, he can be even "quirkier" than the "quirks" he "finds" on cars, but ya gotta admit that he pretty much has the "Jalpa first person test drive video" market cornered.
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I will agree, he has his connections, there is no denying that.

But, he is also an annoying reviewer who rubs his 1st world problems in people's faces.

I bet he has never picked up a wrench in his life. I don't count him as an enthusiast, merely an opportunist.

There are many like him on YT:

"Hey guys! I just bought this LaFerrari! Hey guys! Its Schmeeee!!!!! I just bought this MP4-12C! Wow, this car is soooooo fast!!! Don't forget to smash that like button! Check out this car key! So quirky! Wow, this button opens the trunk! What a feature! Don't forget to subscribe, and check out my Instagram page! Also, consider supporting me on Patreon, because Schmeeee needs another supercar this month!!!"

As I peruse the forums on MG Exp, and XWeb, and I see the men and women (yes, there are a few out there), who scrimp, save, stalk eBay for NOS parts, do most of the wrenching themselves, through years of blood, sweat, tears and dollars...These are the people in the classic car community I respect. The people who buy an X 1/9 for $500.00, put hundreds of hours and perhaps $2k of parts into it to get it roadworthy...these are the heroes who keep these cars on the road, and they have my respect.

I even have respect for a lot of the ricer kids. At least they wrench. At least they dream.

Doug just buys exotic cars and brags about it on YT.

I will take back my statements if I ever come across evidence he does work on his cars...but so far, I've never seen any.

Back on topic: I hope FIAT makes it, but I doubt they will.
 
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