Fiataccompli
Chris Granju
for the oversized spacers, is there also a mechanical advantage (ie, heat transfer from intake) to the larger spacers?
Winter project
- Thread starter docpan
- Start date
MikeHynes
True Classic
I don't know. As far as I'm aware the only difference is the length of the "latch bar" on the engine cover. I believe the location of the cover hinges and latch are the same. And, I believe the hinges and the latch are the same. Personally I prefer the look of the '74 cover, it seems to look less bulky. An alternative would be to use the 1500 model engine cover. That gets you a lot more clearance, but it's a bit more complicated to install.
dllubin
Don
Well, I suppose that I should get the engine back in first and see if it is an issues or not. I think the difference in height between the 1300 and 1500 is less than an inch. Unfortunately, I did not check the clearance while the 1300 was in there.
Agnelli
True Classic
Just ordered a set of phenolic spacers as designed by Don from the eBay speed shop vendor. I have an Alquati manifold with Dcnf 40s and shallow Pierce air cleaners. 1500 under a ‘76 engine cover hope they will fit
Ulix
True Classic
The engine covers are interchangeable.
The later 1300 cover differs a lot from the 1974 cover. It is not just the length of the lock bar.
The sides are taller as well, the whole cover is "thicker".
For this reason I went through great length to get a 1977 cover for my 1974 with DCNFs and tall block.
But measuring the critical dimensions, I found that the late cover does NOT offer more space than the early cover.
I'll check if I took pics.
I have a longer latch bar on my 74 cover now and have elongated the holes of the hinges where they mount to the firewall. So my cover sits higher front and rear.
It is not possible to get an adequately tall filter with velocity stacks in there.
A 1500 cover would be much better.
The later 1300 cover differs a lot from the 1974 cover. It is not just the length of the lock bar.
The sides are taller as well, the whole cover is "thicker".
For this reason I went through great length to get a 1977 cover for my 1974 with DCNFs and tall block.
But measuring the critical dimensions, I found that the late cover does NOT offer more space than the early cover.
I'll check if I took pics.
I have a longer latch bar on my 74 cover now and have elongated the holes of the hinges where they mount to the firewall. So my cover sits higher front and rear.
It is not possible to get an adequately tall filter with velocity stacks in there.
A 1500 cover would be much better.
dllubin
Don
I got my 74 cover to fit with a 1500 and dual DCNFs by sliding the latch up and readjusting the corner posts. However, l'm using the flattop carbs with a Sprint filter that is not very tall.
MikeHynes
True Classic
I'm not sure what year the early cover was taller, '77 sounds right, my '77 has one. They are easy to ID, they are the ones that have the plastic strip screwed onto the back to fill the gap that's created when the hinges were extended to raise the lid (along with the longer latch catch).
I'm not sure why you're not able to get more clearance on you engine lid Ulix. Did you use the correct hinges? Maybe it's a Euro thing?
If you use the right early engine cover (my '77 has it), with the correct hinges, it will raise the cover. That's why Fiat added the plastic filler strip, to fill the gap that is created when the lid is raised. I've done this mod a couple times. It does provide more clearance. Sorry it didn't work for you Ulix.
I'm not sure why you're not able to get more clearance on you engine lid Ulix. Did you use the correct hinges? Maybe it's a Euro thing?
If you use the right early engine cover (my '77 has it), with the correct hinges, it will raise the cover. That's why Fiat added the plastic filler strip, to fill the gap that is created when the lid is raised. I've done this mod a couple times. It does provide more clearance. Sorry it didn't work for you Ulix.
Ulix
True Classic
Both my lids are US spec.
I believe my problem was that the step from the hinge mounting surface to the bottom of the inner panel (the area where the air cleaners will touch) is the same on both lids.
So no space gained at the front (when using the same hinges).
I‘ll check it again next time I‘m in the garage and will take pics.
I believe my problem was that the step from the hinge mounting surface to the bottom of the inner panel (the area where the air cleaners will touch) is the same on both lids.
So no space gained at the front (when using the same hinges).
I‘ll check it again next time I‘m in the garage and will take pics.
MikeHynes
True Classic
I had another look at engine covers and didn't really find any surprises. I'm not sure if the '77 engine cover is different from all the other early engine covers, but it is different from a '74. Don't know about a '75, '76, or '78.
Compared to the '74 - the '77 came with the longer latch bar, plastic filler strip on the rear, deeper side "skirts", a plastic filler strip on the side vents, funky spring loaded engine cover holder upper rod, and of course - the taller hinges. I couldn't find any other early engine covers that had a deeper (or other significant differences) inner structure. So I don't think the inner structure is a factor in gaining more clearance.
I do believe that the hinges, and longer latch bar are the key differences. Here is a pic of the '77 hinge alongside the '74 hinge.
The engine cover mounts to the top half holes (top parts appear to be the same). The hinge mounts to the firewall through the bottom holes. As you can see the '77 hinge will mount the engine cover up higher. To compensate Fiat added the plastic filler strip on the rear, made the side skirts of the engine cover deeper (by about 18mm), and added a spacer to the plastic side vents. (below)
'74 latch bar - about 34 mm in length.
The '77 Latch bar - about 87 mm.
So, you could gain some extra clearance by using the '77 hinges and lengthening the latch bar on your non-'77 early engine cover. But, then you would have a gap - all around. Or you could use the '77 engine cover and hinges, then add the plastic bits on the rear of the engine cover and side vents. Oh, and then you would have to deal with the funky engine cover holder upper rod. (a stick works for me)
In the end it's a lot of effort just to get just a bit more clearance - unless you just happen to have a '77 parts car stashed away.
BTW - The late (1500/5 spd cars) engine cover (left) has the longest latch bar, here compared to the '77 (right).
The later engine cover has the most clearance, but requires the use of the late engine side vents. (Doable on early cars)
Odd thing, the late engine cover hinges (left) are the same length are the non-'77 early hinges (right). Which confirms that the inner structure of the late engine cover is different where the hinge mounts.
Compared to the '74 - the '77 came with the longer latch bar, plastic filler strip on the rear, deeper side "skirts", a plastic filler strip on the side vents, funky spring loaded engine cover holder upper rod, and of course - the taller hinges. I couldn't find any other early engine covers that had a deeper (or other significant differences) inner structure. So I don't think the inner structure is a factor in gaining more clearance.
I do believe that the hinges, and longer latch bar are the key differences. Here is a pic of the '77 hinge alongside the '74 hinge.
The engine cover mounts to the top half holes (top parts appear to be the same). The hinge mounts to the firewall through the bottom holes. As you can see the '77 hinge will mount the engine cover up higher. To compensate Fiat added the plastic filler strip on the rear, made the side skirts of the engine cover deeper (by about 18mm), and added a spacer to the plastic side vents. (below)
'74 latch bar - about 34 mm in length.
The '77 Latch bar - about 87 mm.
So, you could gain some extra clearance by using the '77 hinges and lengthening the latch bar on your non-'77 early engine cover. But, then you would have a gap - all around. Or you could use the '77 engine cover and hinges, then add the plastic bits on the rear of the engine cover and side vents. Oh, and then you would have to deal with the funky engine cover holder upper rod. (a stick works for me)
In the end it's a lot of effort just to get just a bit more clearance - unless you just happen to have a '77 parts car stashed away.
BTW - The late (1500/5 spd cars) engine cover (left) has the longest latch bar, here compared to the '77 (right).
The later engine cover has the most clearance, but requires the use of the late engine side vents. (Doable on early cars)
Odd thing, the late engine cover hinges (left) are the same length are the non-'77 early hinges (right). Which confirms that the inner structure of the late engine cover is different where the hinge mounts.
Dr.Jeff
True Classic
If it helps any of you, I have couple of spare late style engine covers, hinges, latches, etc, available. I wasn't going to post all of my spare parts for sale until I'm finished with all of the projects, but this discussion seems timely to at least mention these items. You can message me if there is anything you need.
Ulix
True Classic
Great analysis Mike!
This confirms my feelings that you can gain the same clearance with the 1974 cover if you just use longer hinges and lengthened latch bar as with a 1977 cover.
Since I had already modded my 1974 cover, I didn't gain any clearance when mounting that 1977 cover. It just looks different.
I had missed the point that the height difference in the front really comes from longer hinges rather than a taller different inner structure of the cover.
This confirms my feelings that you can gain the same clearance with the 1974 cover if you just use longer hinges and lengthened latch bar as with a 1977 cover.
Since I had already modded my 1974 cover, I didn't gain any clearance when mounting that 1977 cover. It just looks different.
I had missed the point that the height difference in the front really comes from longer hinges rather than a taller different inner structure of the cover.
Agnelli
True Classic
Phenolic spacers as spec’d originally by Docpan just arrived.
lookforjoe
True Classic
LOL. it is curious that they have that wood-grain effect- phenolic spacers I'm used to typically just have that "natural" pale coloration.
Dr.Jeff
True Classic
When I was buying some phenolic plate material to make custom manifold insulators I found out there are a couple of different construction techniques/material types. Some are actually made from paper/wood products, others from plastics, glass fiber, etc. Apparently the stuff is used mostly as a electrical insulator rather than a heat insulator, so the base material differs accordingly. But all of them are called "phenolic" so it can be misleading. However it does matter what type is used for our applications; some will break down when exposed to solvents (fuel) and others will catch fire if it gets too hot.
Agnelli
True Classic
regarding the get ready to be asked about wood in your car you may get a kick out of this:
Prior owner of my sunset orange early X is a contractor. He replaced the rotten coolant tubes, and to secure them did use wood bits and metal strap material normally found at a building supply outlet.
It works!
As to phenolic variable materials, I am hopeful these are not susceptible to being flammable, particularly given their location! I'm thinking the supplier is reputable and enough have been in use to be proven.
Prior owner of my sunset orange early X is a contractor. He replaced the rotten coolant tubes, and to secure them did use wood bits and metal strap material normally found at a building supply outlet.
It works!
As to phenolic variable materials, I am hopeful these are not susceptible to being flammable, particularly given their location! I'm thinking the supplier is reputable and enough have been in use to be proven.
Dr.Jeff
True Classic
Yes, I did not mean to imply otherwise at all. I was simply relaying some info I discovered about phenolic insulators in general. It appeared that the different construction types tend to be various colors of brown, yellow, and red. Again, that's not significant here. But if someone were to go looking for a plate of phenolic material to make their own insulators (like I did), then they should be aware of these possible differences.
