Working on X1/9's

TonyK

TonyK

True Classic
This week after my son's wedding on Saturday the 27th, Bob Martin is staying with me at my house.

We have his Black Dallara in my shop and are sorting through the list of items he wants dealt with.

One surprizing thing to me was how dull the engine preforms. Timing looks correct, he has a Vick's Auto Variable cam pulley and the marks on the pulley and crank shaft appear to be lined up. Timing is set 10 degrees advanced, but the car when driven with it's 35/75 Camshaft seems like it is retarded. There is no sweet spot where the engine comes alive. He also has the Midwest ported head on this engine as well. I have not checked the compression, but Bob states that the car does not use oil and we did change the oil and it was very clean. Possibly exhaust blockage? Just not sure yet.

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Other items on the list were to change the gear box oil and install the thermal bulb for his dash gauge cluster engine cooling temperature gauge. This becomes and issue because the gauge is in the dash and the engine is in the rear of the car and the sensing bulb is connected by a capillary tube. The location was now chosen to be the front rad hose.
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Here we have made of the components for the rad hose installation of the sensing bulb.

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Also the seat have been removed and the floor pans have been cleaned and painted. New carpet installation is to follow.

TonyK.

Grimsby Ontario Canada.

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Congrats on your sons wedding!

Keep posting your progress on this one. I'm considering a camshaft update along with a milled head and some mild porting as well, so I'm curious as to what the issue is.

Beezee
 
Bob's car is too shiny. That's the issue right there Tony. I have a primered 85 with the MWB performance set up in it. That car runs great, so I will make a sacrifice and trade Bob the 85 and the 124 Special for his car. ;)

Say "Hi" to Bob for me and congrats on your son's wedding!
 
What exhaust is his car running? I see hes his car is fuel injected. Thats probably the issue. Ditch it and get a carb ;)
 
Eastep said:
What exhaust is his car running? I see hes his car is fuel injected. Thats probably the issue. Ditch it and get a carb ;)
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Here is a picture of the Exhaust system on the car. It is what the car came with, not one of our creations. I wish there was a coupling so I could disconnect the muffler and see if that made a difference. I am not fond of the 180 degree bend there either but wonder if it is causing the problem. We are going to Call Midwest this morning and see what Matt recommends.

Bob has a blue X with the same engine set up and the engine pulls very nicely. He does not have the adjustable cam pulley, I am not sure if the marks on the Vic pulley are correct, may have to verify.

TonyK.
Grimsby Ontario Canada.

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Im not convinced that the exhaust, is causing the issue. Granted, there is room for improvement in its design, but not enough restriction to drastically reduce performance. Personally Id check through the basics again. Air, Fuel and Spark. What dizzy is being used? Does it still have the vacuum apparatus on it? Is it possible its a vacuum retard dizzy and not vac advance? Mine was vacuum retard, and after I capped it off, it ran alot better.
 
Eastep said:
Im not convinced that the exhaust, is causing the issue. Granted, there is room for improvement in its design, but not enough restriction to drastically reduce performance. Personally Id check through the basics again. Air, Fuel and Spark. What dizzy is being used? Does it still have the vacuum apparatus on it? Is it possible its a vacuum retard dizzy and not vac advance? Mine was vacuum retard, and after I capped it off, it ran alot better.
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Stock ignition and when viewed with the timing light it does advance with the vacuum motor.

TonyK.

Grimsby Ontario Canada
 
TonyK said:
Timing looks correct, he has a Vick's Auto Variable cam pulley and the marks on the pulley and crank shaft appear to be lined up.
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Why was this pulley installed? To compensate for machined block and/or head?
If that is the case, then by setting to the marks, I suspect the cam is currently retarded.

Does that sound correct Steve? Bernice?
 
Tony,

Which Vick's adjustable gear is on the car? The original version from a few years ago was only marked for 1300s. The new version has marks for both 1300 and 1500 and a little degree indicator. The method for setting the initial timing depends on the version of the gear. I am sure you would have noticed the marking issue, since the gear is keyed and only goes on one way, but I figured I would throw it out here anyway.
 
JimD said:
Tony,

Which Vick's adjustable gear is on the car? The original version from a few years ago was only marked for 1300s. The new version has marks for both 1300 and 1500 and a little degree indicator. The method for setting the initial timing depends on the version of the gear. I am sure you would have noticed the marking issue, since the gear is keyed and only goes on one way, but I figured I would throw it out here anyway.
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Here is what I found. Please realize that I have never worked on this engine before. Take look at the picture. You will see that the Cam index point is 180 degrees out of sync and that the cam was retarded an additional 2 teeth. Called and talked to Matt Brannon at Midwest to confirm that this cam is installed with a stock pulley and index marks. Like I said I got into the car and drove it and my impression was that the engine was retarded. Not sure what adjustable pulley this is from, possibly a 124 Spyder engine? What we did was remove the Vick's pulley and install a stock Fiat pulley. Cam position was 180 degrees out plus 2 teeth. Rotated engine 90 degrees, the rotated the camshaft to the index mark. Removed the Fiat pulley and then installed the Vicks pulley and marked it. Rotated engine back to TDC and installed Timing belt. Buttoned up the engine, rough set Dizzy position and started the engine. Set timing for 10 degrees advance. We did a video of how the car sounds but I lost it. Will reshoot tomorrow.

Yes the head has been decked and should have an additional 4 degrees advance or so to hit the sweet spot of this engine.

Thanks for the comments.

TonyK.

Grimsby Ontario Canada.

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This will make the engine run weird. Not just 180 degrees off, it can be off by some number of degrees on cam timing causing all sorts of grief.

Two revolutions of the crank for one revolution at the cam... doubles the timing error.

Any time adjustable cam wheels are applied, it is assumed the cam will be set up with a degree wheel and dial indicator initially to the specified valve over lap (typically 103 to 110 degrees with 105 being common).

Suggest removing the cam with the cam housing, set up a degree wheel on the cam and dial indicator inside the cam follower bucket, then proceed to measure the cam timing for specified split valve over lap (for crank TDC), mark this with great precision. Set up the degree wheel on the crank and dial indicator on piston# 1 to precisely determine TDC (crank-rod-piston free play accounted for). Re-assemble the cam to cylinder head, then adjust the cam split over lap mark to crank TDC.

Typical cam set up procedure.


Bernice
 
Yep Tony,

That's the old version Vick's sold for the X1/9 back in 2011 time frame. They did create that adjustable gear specifically for the X.

I hope that was your issue and that all is well with Bob's car. Good luck.
 
JimD said:
Yep Tony,

That's the old version Vick's sold for the X1/9 back in 2011 time frame. They did create that adjustable gear specifically for the X.

I hope that was your issue and that all is well with Bob's car. Good luck.
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Thanks for the comments.

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Today with the engine running I took a short video so that you can hear the sound of the engine. No longer retarded throttle response is crisp.

On to the carpet.

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This is a one piece carpet which comes with some short comings. The gear shift lever location and hand brake location have not been punched. The gas pedal has not been punched either. Since we had to start working from the back of the car toward the gas pedal, which was done last it present the problem of installing the carpet over the pedal. This process caused the gas pedal stop to break off and I had to remove the pedal and install a new stop, then install the pedal through the carpet slit. A long and difficult process.
 
Great progress. Nice work getting so far so quickly. A bunch of tasks, and some complex stuff to figure out which from the sounds of it was well worth the effort.

So where did this one piece carpet come from out of curiosity? It looks like the pad is also reattached which I imagine makes it even more unwieldy to deal with. It looks quite good with the way it conforms or is it just the quality of the installers? Bummer about the gas pedal, two steps forward one step back
 
kmead said:
Great progress. Nice work getting so far so quickly. A bunch of tasks, and some complex stuff to figure out which from the sounds of it was well worth the effort.

So where did this one piece carpet come from out of curiosity? It looks like the pad is also reattached which I imagine makes it even more unwieldy to deal with. It looks quite good with the way it conforms or is it just the quality of the installers? Bummer about the gas pedal, two steps forward one step back
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Bob purchased the carpet from Midwest 5 years ago and it has sat in the box until now. In all fairness Bob's car has a roll bar in it as well and installation had to start from the back of the car working forward. I suppose we could have removed the carpet again once I knew where the gas pedal cuts needed to be man, but we had to cut out for the hand brake, gear shifter, seat belt bolts and roll bar locations and that was a lot of work doing that. Then installed over the gas pedal and put it all together again. We spent 5 hours on the install and that does not include the seat removal. We should have it back together latter today and hopefully be able to take the car out for a drive. Will post when we are there.

TonyK.

Grimsby Ontario Canada.
 
Sounds great! What cam are you using and what sort of muffler/silencer have you installed? I am assuming you have employed some sort of programmable FI management? Does not sound stock Bosch... Thanks and if everything has been covered in another post my apologies.
Regards
 
rocco79/138 said:
Sounds great! What cam are you using and what sort of muffler/silencer have you installed? I am assuming you have employed some sort of programmable FI management? Does not sound stock Bosch... Thanks and if everything has been covered in another post my apologies.
Regards
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Muffler is Flow Master 2.5" inlet and out let from a Camaro with a 4 branch header to two out lets or dual exhaust. Stock fuel injection system. A bit loud to my liking.
Bob is sitting beside me and says it really should be louder.

Performance head and camshaft from Midwest Bayless.

The Carpet is in.

See pictures.

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To punch the holes in the carpet and under pad I used this Gasket cutter set.

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Afterward we took the car out for a drive, see this video.



We also did some cam shaft timing adjustment and move the cam shaft forward 4 degrees.

TonyK

Grimsby Ontario Canada.
 
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