Alternative gearbox for X1/9 from VW, Audi (WAG group)

[Dr.Jeff]

I can't offer any info on the newer 02J clutch options. But the earlier 020 units pretty much had only two sizes, to match the two flywheel options.

Are you thinking of using just the friction material from the smaller one, onto the larger one? That may not be so easy, it should be glued as well as riveted on. And the diameter may not fit the other disk's mounting surface (circumference). Or are you thinking of cutting out the middle of one disk and mounting in the other? Either way I know you can figure it out.

 

[Jonohhh]

Or that 228 mm VW clutch disc I got can’t be used with double mass flywheel because it doesn’t have springs?

There should be some form of spring damper in the system- whether that's a sprung clutch hub, or a dual mass flywheel. It is also possible to use a damped clutch disc with a dual mass flywheel...but I would personally advise against such if possible, as having two spring dampers with different resonant frequencies working together can make for some interesting results.



I would personally use a single mass flywheel and damped disc if at all possible, but any combo will work as long as one is present. Non damped clutch discs (like the one you showed last) are made to be used with a DMF, so there should be no worries about compatibility.

 

[Janis]

There should be some form of spring damper in the system- whether that's a sprung clutch hub, or a dual mass flywheel. It is also possible to use a damped clutch disc with a dual mass flywheel...but I would personally advise against such if possible, as having two spring dampers with different resonant frequencies working together can make for some interesting results.



I would personally use a single mass flywheel and damped disc if at all possible, but any combo will work as long as one is present. Non damped clutch discs (like the one you showed last) are made to be used with a DMF, so there should be no worries about compatibility.

Sorry I typed my comment wrong, and then edited also wrong but in other direction, ut happens often when I think faster then type

Is that clutch disc meant only to work with DMF? - if Yes, can it be used with single mass flywheel?

 

[Janis]

I can't offer any info on the newer 02J clutch options. But the earlier 020 units pretty much had only two sizes, to match the two flywheel options.

Are you thinking of using just the friction material from the smaller one, onto the larger one? That may not be so easy, it should be glued as well as riveted on. And the diameter may not fit the other disk's mounting surface (circumference). Or are you thinking of cutting out the middle of one disk and mounting in the other? Either way I know you can figure it out.

Not sure yet how exactly..

 

[Jonohhh]

Sorry I typed my comment wrong, and then edited also wrong but in other direction, ut happens often when I think faster then type

No worries at all. I do the same all the time!

Is that clutch disc meant only to work with DMF? - if Yes, can it be used with single mass flywheel?

If that clutch has no springs in the hub (as it appears), I would NOT use it with a single mass flywheel. Having absolutely nothing in the driveline to dampen inertial shock loads is generally a bad idea, as the engine pulses will hammer the whole drivetrain, and there will be nothing to absorb the shock of a quick shift or hard launch. After all, durability is a part of the goal of this

 

[Janis]

Didn’t want to make this swap longer so bought 190mm Sachs clutch plate.
Fitting looks perfect. Same thicknes 6.95mm as previous Valeo plate - so no resurfacing needed.

Unfortunately those springs on Sachs plate are rattling

Brand new Sachs clutch plate rattling

youtube.com

This is combination of:
X1/9 5speed flywheel
X1/9 5speed Valeo basket
VW Sachs/ZF clutch plate 1878 068 031

Choice of clutch plates is very wide to match Punto GT flywheel for example with 215mm size.

Few photos without context, just in case You see what are looking for, if are looking

 

[Jonohhh]

I think I've said this many times before but absolutely excellent work, @Janis .

 

[Janis]

Previously I have mantioned that 6speed 02M might fit, but it is much beafier than 02J/02A.

There is also 02S 6speed box, basically same as 02J but a bit longer and without speedo. From what I have read internals can be swapped into 02J box to fit speedo or maybe drill a hole.. And they say it (02S 6speed) is lighter than 02M 6speed.

Just FYI

02S 6speed in pictures

 

[Janis]

If You are considering to use VW starter motor, here is a link to where some man made a frankenstarter that ended up too long into bellhouse - that could be what actually needed for this 128sohc+02J pairing.

Also face where starter mounts could be shaved to move it closer to flywheel.

*don’t waste Your time and do not click on the link if are not trying to use vw starter motor

Project Lucille: Eurovan VR6 build and 5-speed conversion

www.vwvortex.com

 

[Dr.Jeff]

Didn’t want to make this swap longer so bought 190mm Sachs clutch plate.
Fitting looks perfect. Same thicknes 6.95mm as previous Valeo plate - so no resurfacing needed.

Unfortunately those springs on Sachs plate are rattling

Brand new Sachs clutch plate rattling

youtube.com

This is combination of:
X1/9 5speed flywheel
X1/9 5speed Valeo basket
VW Sachs/ZF clutch plate 1878 068 031

Choice of clutch plates is very wide to match Punto GT flywheel for example with 215mm size.

Few photos without context, just in case You see what are looking for, if are looking


View attachment 59858View attachment 59859View attachment 59860View attachment 59861View attachment 59862View attachment 59863View attachment 59864View attachment 59865View attachment 59866View attachment 59867View attachment 59868View attachment 59869

Sorry, off topic. But in your pics I saw something that brought back great memories. At one time my shop was large enough that I used a Razor scooter to get around it also.

 

[Janis]

Particular 02J came with plastic clutch slave cylinder with “modern” type fitting for piping.
I bought one that is meant for 02A box and has threaded connection.
*Haven’t yet checked does it fit, but if I do not mention it later, then it fits.
VW part number 357721261 A (with or without A in the end,if there is any difference )

 

[Dr.Jeff]

Particular 02J came with plastic clutch slave cylinder with “modern” type fitting for piping.
I bought one that is meant for 02A box and has threaded connection.
*Haven’t yet checked does it fit, but if I do not mention it later, then it fits.
VW part number 357721261 A (with or without A in the end,if there is any difference )

View attachment 60276

The "A" at the end just indicates it is a updated version. With each update the next letter (B, C, etc) is used. However the updates could mean anything. Typically it is very minor changes. Regardless all "letter" versions with be interchangeable.

Any idea how the complete 02A box compares with the 02J in terms of fit? I'm only familiar with the earlier boxes, up to about the 02A, so not sure how the later ones (e.g. 02J) differ.

 

[Janis]

To attach adapter to gearbox bought M12 L=80mm countersink bolts.

Will cut off threaded part and cut M12x1.25 thread on the other part.

 

[Janis]

The "A" at the end just indicates it is a updated version. With each update the next letter (B, C, etc) is used. However the updates could mean anything. Typically it is very minor changes. Regardless all "letter" versions with be interchangeable.

Any idea how the complete 02A box compares with the 02J in terms of fit? I'm only familiar with the earlier boxes, up to about the 02A, so not sure how the later ones (e.g. 02J) differ.

Have no idea about internal or external differences, only what have googled.

 

[Janis]

Theese look much more promising

 

[Janis]

Looks that eveything so far is ok.
Will have to check what is normal still position of release bearing’s fork, it look that it might not depress enough.
That big hole I made have some bonuses to see what it really looks inside

 

[Dr.Jeff]

Coming along nicely.

If the clutch fork doesn't reach far enough you should be able to modify things to make it work. Either change the ratio by moving the respective locations for its pivot and hydraulic cylinder attachment. Or extend the arm to sit further forward.

I think if the engine block and transmission case are painted the same black as the adapter then the inspectors will never notice it's there.

 

[Janis]

Coming along nicely.

If the clutch fork doesn't reach far enough you should be able to modify things to make it work. Either change the ratio by moving the respective locations for its pivot and hydraulic cylinder attachment. Or extend the arm to sit further forward.

I think if the engine block and transmission case are painted the same black as the adapter then the inspectors will never notice it's there.

There is adjustment screw on bottom of input shaft, if it will be too short, might put a longer one in.

I considered today about all black in engine bay it would bee too suspectfull, at least for me. Mud guard plate underneath might help.

 

[Janis]

Added few shims to get more travel of bearing.

But I don’t understand one thing why VW has spring inside slave cylinder. That means that there is always some preload of release bearing into pressure plate.

 

[Janis]

From this thread I assume that is normal in some setups that throw out bearing runs constantly on pressure plate.

Throw out bearing always makes contact? - Club Cobra

In some applications the throw out bearing always makes constant contact with the clutch fingers? The application Im building for my Superformance

www.clubcobra.com

Now I need to test somehow does really slave cylinder have enough movement to release clutch disc.