Roobus's K20A2-Powered LBZ on BaT

Longitudinal said:
You're welcome any time.

GTS is Celica GTS? I don't know F23 and F40, except the obvious F40, and I know you don't have one of those transmissions. o_O

Yeah, it seems that FIAT did a great job of building the SOHC transmissions to fit that notch in the body. :) Most any other trans is going to require some cutting on the left side unless the engine is narrow enough to allow the trans to move far enough right to clear the rail.

The engine block is a simpler shape that, due to its height, is going to have to fit beside the rail without penetrating into it. But it's still a factor because it pushes the transmission to the left in order to fit. Given the same trans width, I think it would be a struggle to fit an engine any wider than a K20 into an X. One member here has a plan to install a 07K VW engine (late model I5) into an X. The VW 02M trans that would mount to that engine is compact, maybe compact enough to make it work without extensive cutting. We shall see...

Regarding the Lancia box for the twin cam, I don't think it would fit any better than a Honda trans. They're pretty bulky compared to the slim little SOHC unit. I would like to think that all of that bulk brings strength, but I don't know how good the twin cam unit is. As I said somewhere above, not knowing how strong the trans is has always kept me away from the DOHC engines. The DOHC engine really is a strong engine with a pretty good cylinder head for its time, but I would be afraid to build something powerful then not be able to keep a transmission together. Regarding as a whole a DOHC swap into an X, I don't think it would be any easier or more natural than any other non-native swap. A miss is as good as a mile, and all of the mounting fixtures and locations are different. As many have surely said before (including me,) I really wish that FIAT had just built the X with the DOHC engine in the first case. I can't see it costing THAT much more, and it would have made the X a wholly different car with a lot more performance and potential as built. It's not that the SOHC engine can't be made to perform, but the DOHC would have done everything better and made it more of the "baby Ferrari" that was advertised.
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Funny you should mention the 07K-- we had one of those lying here, with the MT for it. I assumed it was a lot bigger than the Twin-Cam's gearbox but that's easy to check. I'll be back week after next. I'll check back in once I"m back. Thanks for all the great ideas.
 
Longitudinal said:
I really wish that FIAT had just built the X with the DOHC engine in the first case. I can't see it costing THAT much more, and it would have made the X a wholly different car with a lot more performance and potential as built. It's not that the SOHC engine can't be made to perform, but the DOHC would have done everything better and made it more of the "baby Ferrari" that was advertised.
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First off...I feel bad this discussion has veered away considerably from Gerald's fine Zagato....as often seems to happen here....

Your statement about wishing the X had come with the DOHC in the first place......was NEVER going to happen !!!

There is no doubt that the X was conceived SOLELY as a 128 spyder. Following a tradition that Fiat - and Bertone - always did. Like using all mainstream 850 sedan bits to create a 850 spider. Back then the contract to design and build the 850 Spider would have been the bulk of Bertone's business.

With the demise of the 850 sedan...being replaced in the market spot by the Fiat 128 sedan.....Fiat were keen to have a "sports" variant in the 128 family. As of course also were Bertone as they could see a large contract to produce that variant. Bertone were asked to - and did - produce design studies using the 128 engine/tranny/suspension in of course a fwd layout. It is said that due to the 128 engine's height and bulk.....the designs were just not stylish enough. And Fiat already had a 128 coupe in the line-up...

It is said that Bertone themselves came up with the idea of simply moving the 128 drivetrain to a mid-engined configuration. Quite possible to do...and thus allowed for a low front hoodline and stunning styling. Not to mention the potential for superb handling like all the race cars and Muira's of the day.....

Story was that the Fiat management were firmly against the proposal.......until the very head of Fiat - Agnelli - said..."well okay"...

But......there was no doubt that this project was firmly still just - and only - a 128 Spider. Using as many as possible 128 components.

Unlike say a 131 sedan which would have been designed from the outset to be able to receive a variety of engines and transmissions......it is clear the X1/9 was strictly designed around the 128 engine, 4 speed manual transmission, Cv shafts and suspension that would dictate its width. Bertone was eventually allowed to tilt the engine back a bit to be able to make the car shorter and improve engine service access. Keep in mind the 128 engine ( 1100cc at the time stretched to 1300cc later ) and 4 speed manual tranny were very compact designs....

i'm quite sure that zero consideration was given to an X1/9 ever being able to accept bigger powertrains like the fiat twincam. The X1/9s whole mission in life was to be strictly a 128 spider......full stop...

This can be seen by the fairly major changes needed when the X1/9 was eventually updated to accept drivetrains from the Ritmo ( the 128s successor ) which used the same basic 128 bits but the same basic engine now stretched to 1500cc and an extension on the end of the same basic tranny for a 5th gear. For these small changes Bertone had to raise the engine lid ( the 1500 was taller ) and modify both the left main rear chassis rail...and modify the left A arm of the suspension for transmission clearance. As there was NO extra room in there.....
 
One wonders how many Prototipo style Stradale versions would have hit the road if it had been allowed to be Fiats rally car instead of the 131 based car. That would have had the TC motor but of course it would have cost a fortune and be as rare as the 124 Stradale in the US and never would have been legal for sale in the US due to emissions concerns.

One can dream.
 
rx1900 said:
First off...I feel bad this discussion has veered away considerably from Gerald's fine Zagato....as often seems to happen here....
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Well, as I continue to bid on his wonderful car, I'm absorbing all the knowledge here with great enthusiasm. So, please don't feel too bad.
 
rx1900 said:
Your statement about wishing the X had come with the DOHC in the first place......was NEVER going to happen !!!
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Well, obviously it never did. FIAT had their plan for the X, and yes, the company seemed cold on the idea of even moving the car forward. But it's fun to dream of what could have been.
 
Santa Barbarian said:
Thanks for all that color.
As it happens, I have another rust-free X swap candidate in the shop and we're busily scratching our heads because the gearbox is clearly the limiting factor on putting a non-Fiat transmission in there. Until we had the single-cam and transaxle out of that Bertone? No clue. I guess I'd never realized how the unique shape of the 1300/1500-transaxle combo allowed it to fit in there so neatly. And, Honda and GTS and F23 and F40 gearboxes don't appear to fit very well at all. The engine block's the least of the problem, to our eye. But getting the trans to fit? Big issue.
I'd guess tthe end of the Honda box would be really jammed into that fender well on the driver's side.

I'm in the middle of another project right now, but may hit you up sometime about help on that X. It's a nice car, but none of our great ideas fit. Do you know if the Lancia 5-speed fits anywhere as well as the Fiat unit does?

Thanks!
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Yup...as you seem to have deduced.....the tranny is really more of a limiting factor than the engine when contemplating a swap 😪

Or more accurately....the combined engine and tranny.....especially the length of it.....

The major problem is that the main front-to-rear chassis rails in the X engine bay are only about 32" apart. which means...ideally....any proposed engine/tranny ...leaving at least an inch of service room ( for belt service and such ) on the right side of the bay....should only be about 30.5" combined length. Like a 1300/4 speed X combo......and good luck finding a modern powertrain with decent power that short....

for reference...an X engine is about 18.5" from front of pulley to bellhousing face.....a 4 speed X tranny is about 12" or so long. A 5 speed X tranny is about 15" long with the 5th gear extension on it. For a total length of about 33.5" Luckily..that extension nose is only about 5" tall x 7" wide. So when Fiat carved a chunk out of that frame rail....that nose would just then tuck mostly under that frame rail. There then became an issue where the bottom of the tranny nose would hit the A arm when the suspension was fully compressed. so Fiat had to put a relief scallop in the A arm of the 1500 models...Everything then cleared....but just.......

Much more than that 33.5" length ends up with the nose of the tranny well into the rear wheel well...you can only go so far there. and if the nose of any proposed tranny is any bigger than the Fiat 5 speed nose......you end up having to carve huge chunks out of the frame rail.....like for example with a K20 swap..........

so the story goes..for example.....the width of an Alfa V6 engine and tranny .....forces you to move both frame rails...and strut towers...and suspension mounts......outwards a few inches on each side.......so anything is possible...but clearly a big task......

As for that VW 5 cyl engine and tranny....i'd like to see the combined length of that.......

And all this is before you consider the front-to rear space in an X engine bay....and that sure isn't much either........
 
rx1900 said:
As for that VW 5 cyl engine and tranny....i'd like to see the combined length of that.......
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It's out at the shop. I'll post when I'm out there, because I'm curious now. It's hard to imagine any other transmission design "accidentally" being that narrow-in-just-the-right-way shape of the original Fiat box. I really didn't "get it" until we had it out on the pallet. It's quite striking.

I did, BTW, just hit his LBZ with another bid, so this remains OnTopic.
 
Santa Barbarian said:
. It's hard to imagine any other transmission design "accidentally" being that narrow-in-just-the-right-way shape of the original Fiat box.
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Well........if you wish hard enough....and look around enough.......miracles can happen.......yup.......

Santa Barbarian said:
It's out at the shop. I'll post when I'm out there, because I'm curious now.
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Yeah......I think that 07K Vw engine has a bore of 82.5mm........5 of those is about 16.25". Add on bore spacing, end spacing, space for timing chain or belt, pulleys, etc....and you gotta be way over the Fiat's 18" total engine length.........Hope that VW tranny is real short........
 
rx1900 said:
As for that VW 5 cyl engine and tranny....i'd like to see the combined length of that.......
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VW/Audi engine in a Fiat/Lancia is like getting a heart transplant from your world rally arch rival.

We ran a swapped Audi 5 cylinder 20v turbo in a Lexus. It’s stubby length allows to move its weight where you want

A58AA881-A8E1-411C-BB23-BCADE8690535.jpeg
 
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rx1900 said:
As for that VW 5 cyl engine and tranny....i'd like to see the combined length of that.......
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It is a very compact engine with only 82.5mm bores, fairly tight bore spacing, and a rear timing chain. And the 02M transmission is also compact. But I doubt that the trans is more than 2" shorter in length than a K20 trans, and I guarantee that the engine is at least that much longer than a K. It would have to be a very tight fit.
 
Longitudinal said:
But I doubt that the trans is more than 2" shorter in length than a K20 trans, and I guarantee that the engine is at least that much longer than a K. It would have to be a very tight fit.
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Just curious...do you recall the length of a K20 engine and tranny ?? Is the Acura 6 speed any longer or bigger than the 5 speed ??
 
rx1900 said:
A REAR timing chain ?? That must be fun to change........
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Indeed! Same as VR6, both 12V and 24V. It seems to me like a pointless idea. The timing chain takes up the same space regardless of where it is located. The only advantage that I can see is that the cam chainwheels are allowed to hang over the trans instead of hanging out toward the fender. It does, however, allow the stealership to charge more hours.
 
rx1900 said:
Just curious...do you recall the length of a K20 engine and tranny ?? Is the Acura 6 speed any longer or bigger than the 5 speed ??
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I'm sorry to say that I never measured any of the components because they were going in there one way or another. :) I have never actually laid eyes on a K series five speed.
 
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