Roobus's K20A2-Powered LBZ on BaT

Bryce-o-rama said:
It’s also possible that the design for manufacture and assembly team discovered they could do the engine build process faster and cheaper. There is a lot of design for manufacture activity that conflicts with design for maintenance and servicing.
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Sure. Those decisions are made all the time. It's why we have Allen and Torx screws all over cars. But can you honestly look at that chain setup and see what made it faster and therefore cheaper to assemble?
 
Longitudinal said:
No, I haven't. My friends are all American engineers.

On the subject of German engineers, they used to do better than this. Back in the dry timing belt days, which are nearly totally behind us now, the timing layouts were simple--even on multivalve engines. I think the VR is what changed everything. It was certainly going to need a chain just for the compactness of it compared to a belt. If you have ever seen the front end of the VR as installed in a MKIII or B3 Passat (or swapped into the nearly identical MKII engine bay,) you know that front-of-engine space is at a premium. MKII VR swaps sometimes need some percussive clearancing of the frame around the crank pulley. It's close. All of the same goes with the 07K I5 engine, also transversely mounted in cars designed for an inline 4. But the space argument doesn't apply as well to a V8 engine that was always going to be longitudinal.
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Not revive this older thread, but I promised to pull that 07K out for some measurements-- so here's a couple of pics of the beast-- with the VW manual transmission that came in the Jetta. At first glance I thought it was pretty short for an I-5; but, upon further tape work?
I make it out to be about 20.5+" from the bell-housing mounting face to the front snout of the crank pulley.
Transaxle is a smidge over 15", despite the transmission being kind of narrow in the right places. The mated combination? I'd assume approximately 36" mated up.

I fully realize there are folks working to mount them in an X1/9 but will continue my search for a more compact solution in my carsIMG_20221001_1408523.jpgIMG_20221001_1408523.jpgIMG_20221001_1409329.jpg. The lower part of the case is especially broad as well. My thoughts are to look at more JDM options for the best fit-- so I'm still looking.

Pics attached.
 
NigelProdrive said:
4G63T was around forever with lots of aftermarket go fast parts. Ten Evolutions of Evos worth. N American DSMs here meant decent supply network years ago.

Mazda rotaries are compact and a hoot if you don’t care for your hearing.
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Thanks. And, I do understand there's been a whole universe of swaps successfully complete-- and the K20 and K24 are the Gold Standard. Mainly I was just shocked to see how unique the Fiat-Transaxle combo actually was once we pulled the stock motor out of the first car. I was certain the EcoTec, the MR2 and EA888 motors would fit right in there, but it's an interesting shape to slide into without the mods, cutting and structural work everybody resorts to.

I'd kinda forgotten about the 4G63-- so will go take a look right now.

Thanks!
 
rx1900 said:
As for that VW 5 cyl engine and tranny....i'd like to see the combined length of that.......

And all this is before you consider the front-to rear space in an X engine bay....and that sure isn't much either........
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I did post the measurements off the 07K and transaxle (Jetta) I had out here at the shop. (See the REPLY just above). It's about 35.5" nose-of-crank-pulley to widest point of transmission housing (which is blunt and less "pointy"). I don't think it works for what I'm doing, so am moving on to other ideas.

This has been a great, if somewhat OT, discussion. Thanks!
 
NigelProdrive said:
4G63T was around forever with lots of aftermarket go fast parts.
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It's a truly great engine. There are two things that I don't like about the 4G63 (or 61) for an X. I don't like the exhaust (and turbocharger) installed against the firewall, and I don't like having the two heaviest components of the car (engine and driver) being placed on the same side.

OK, maybe some of us are lighter than a manual transmission. I'm certainly not.
 
NigelProdrive said:
Mazda rotaries are compact and a hoot if you don’t care for your hearing.
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They are. I have owned several over the years. But transverse mounting them is bound to be a challenge. (I know that it has been done, even by a member here.) The eccentric shaft comes out the center of the engine, unlike any piston engine that has ever been attached to a transverse transaxle, in which the crankshaft comes out near the bottom. This means that the engine would be pushed very low in the car.

Also, supply of many central components of the engines is beginning to dry up. Rotor housings do still exist new, but Mazda stopped producing them several years ago. Irons have been out of production for decades now. Irons and housings that would have been considered trash twenty years ago are now considered usable because of dearth of good parts.

And the Renesis engines are no help at all. What a disappointing end for a legendary engine!
 
Santa Barbarian said:
The lower part of the case is especially broad as well.
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If you want to continue to pursue the 07K idea, you could look at other VW transaxles. The trans you have mounted to the engine is a 02J if five speed and 02M or 02Q (depending on year) if six speed. A 02A transmission is an older unit, and more resembles the skinny 020 from the MKI and MKII cars. It uses the same EA827 bell housing pattern shared with the 07K. Maybe the 02A could keep the I5 dream alive?
 
Santa Barbarian said:
Not revive this older thread, but I promised to pull that 07K out for some measurements-- so here's a couple of pics of the beast-- with the VW manual transmission that came in the Jetta. At first glance I thought it was pretty short for an I-5; but, upon further tape work?
I make it out to be about 20.5+" from the bell-housing mounting face to the front snout of the crank pulley.
Transaxle is a smidge over 15", despite the transmission being kind of narrow in the right places. The mated combination? I'd assume approximately 36" mated up.
Click to expand...
Santa Barbarian said:
I did post the measurements off the 07K and transaxle (Jetta) I had out here at the shop. (See the REPLY just above). It's about 35.5" nose-of-crank-pulley to widest point of transmission housing (which is blunt and less "pointy"). I don't think it works for what I'm doing, so am moving on to other ideas.
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Thanks for posting those measurements. But something is odd here......as the guy here doing the 07K swap into an X...swears the 07K and manual (either 5 speed or 6 speed ) trans combo is actually an inch SHORTER in length than the X1/9 combo ( which is about 33.5" ) . So the VW combo would be about 32.5"according to him. At least 3" shorter than your measurements......and that extra 3" is a huge difference in the tiny X1/9 cramped engine bay.........Is there a totally different 07K tranny he is using ? Surely all 07K engines are the same length ? Or is somebody fibbing ? :oops:

NigelProdrive said:
4G63T was around forever with lots of aftermarket go fast parts. Ten Evolutions of Evos worth. N American DSMs here meant decent supply network years ago.
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Good luck with that !! As I think all the Evos were 4WD..so those trannys wont work.... Yeah..i think there was maybe a 2WD Talon turbo way back in the 90s...and those engines are huge and bulk and quite heavy........

NigelProdrive said:
Mazda rotaries are compact and a hoot if you don’t care for your hearing.
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And good luck with that too. I cant think of a rotary engine with a tranverse tranny. And a Wankel is really wide.......
 
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rx1900 said:
Good luck with that !! As I think all the Evos were 4WD..so those trannys wont work.... Yeah..i think there was maybe a 2WD Talon turbo way back in the 90s...and those engines are huge and bulk and quite heavy........

And good luck with that too. I cant think of a rotary engine with a tranverse tranny. And a Wankel is really wide.......
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Talons were all AWD. Eclipse GST were 2WD. Heavier than the V6 in a Stratos?

https://24hoursoflemons.com/blog/fiat-x1-9-rotary-engine-swap/
 
Longitudinal said:
That's pretty short, thanks to VW's continuing to use undersquare engines and an 88mm bore center spacing that they established 50 years ago when the bore size was 75mm.
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Yep, that's the common thread. Now an 82.5 bore diameter and 5.5mm of "meat".
It's compact for an I-5, but it's pretty broad-in-the-beam along the crankcase is places where "it's hard to move stuff around".

I'm rummaging through JDM parts bins-- and will probably just run after-market. I have a fetish to "downgrade" to some downdraft ITBs, just for the induction noise right behind your head.
 
rx1900 said:
Thanks for posting those measurements. But something is odd here......as the guy here doing the 07K swap into an X...swears the 07K and manual (either 5 speed or 6 speed ) trans combo is actually an inch SHORTER in length than the X1/9 combo ( which is about 33.5" ) . So the VW combo would be about 32.5"according to him. At least 3" shorter than your measurements......and that extra 3" is a huge difference in the tiny X1/9 cramped engine bay.........Is there a totally different 07K tranny he is using ? Surely all 07K engines are the same length ? Or is somebody fibbing ? :oops:
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IIRC, the combo I bought was out of a 2005 Jetta 2.5L 5-speed. I decode that as an HGR coded gearbox.

I might be off a half inch on either end, but whatever I have (and I could have "confusion") I measure as FAR longer than 32.5". Inches longer.
I am certain it won't fit without surgery.

But the HGR was the later box option. Is it possible one of the early 2.0 5-speeds mates up?
 
rx1900 said:
Thanks for posting those measurements. But something is odd here......as the guy here doing the 07K swap into an X...swears the 07K and manual (either 5 speed or 6 speed ) trans combo is actually an inch SHORTER in length than the X1/9 combo ( which is about 33.5" ) . So the VW combo would be about 32.5"according to him. At least 3" shorter than your measurements......and that extra 3" is a huge difference in the tiny X1/9 cramped engine bay.........Is there a totally different 07K tranny he is using ? Surely all 07K engines are the same length ?
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All 07K engines are externally the same. Internals vary a little, but not much.

There were no 07K-specific transmissions, at least in terms of their internal parts and length from bell to tail. I am still not sure about whether any trimming is necessary to install an I4 trans on a 07K; considerable trimming is necessary to install a dual bolt pattern (I4 and I5) transmission (these are longitudinal type transmissions, nothing to be concerned with here) onto a 07K.

Is it possible that the measurer of the other measurements was saying that the 07K engine is shorter than the FIAT engine, rather than comparing whole packages? Then again, the VW trans is the part that I would really expect to be shorter than the FIAT.
 
Santa Barbarian said:
I have a fetish to "downgrade" to some downdraft ITBs, just for the induction noise right behind your head.
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That's fun, but only for a while. I found the intake noise on the K swaps to be obtrusive after a while of driving. At least that is the case with spirited driving. Under normal driving conditions, it was hardly noticeable. But I'm also talking about a plenum with a tube and not individual snorkels.
 
NigelProdrive said:
Talons were all AWD. Eclipse GST were 2WD. Heavier than the V6 in a Stratos?

https://24hoursoflemons.com/blog/fiat-x1-9-rotary-engine-swap/
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Oh no...here in North America we certainly got Eagle Talons in 2wd...both turbo and non-turbo...from about '90-'98. And also other Mitsubishi Eclipse in 2wd..again both turbo and non-turbo. Also same cars sold as a Plymouth Laser.......but I think only '90-'94....

And i think that Lemons rotary-swapped X1/9 had the engine longitudinal using a Porsche transaxle. Cant imagine the hacking to have got that in there......
 
Santa Barbarian said:
IIRC, the combo I bought was out of a 2005 Jetta 2.5L 5-speed. I decode that as an HGR coded gearbox.

I might be off a half inch on either end, but whatever I have (and I could have "confusion") I measure as FAR longer than 32.5". Inches longer.
I am certain it won't fit without surgery.

But the HGR was the later box option. Is it possible one of the early 2.0 5-speeds mates up?
Click to expand...

It should be a 02J type, regardless of code. A comparison to a 02A might be worthwhile. Oh, how I wish there were a database of engine and trans measurements...

Any transmission for an I4 regardless of year or engine size will bolt up.
 
rx1900 said:
So the VW combo would be about 32.5"according to him. At least 3" shorter than your measurements......and that extra 3" is a huge difference in the tiny X1/9 cramped engine bay.........Is there a totally different 07K tranny he is using ?
Click to expand...
I went back out there to re-measure it. I don't see it as anywhere close to 32.5" no matter how I squint.
If I'm charitable about the extra "wart" on the end of the transmission-- and maybe play some games with the crank pulley? 34.5"-ish best case.

I just don't have enough KY-Jelly in my toolbox to slip THIS VW combo into a 32.5" space. He must have a different combination.
 
Longitudinal said:
There were no 07K-specific transmissions, at least in terms of their internal parts and length from bell to tail. I am still not sure about whether any trimming is necessary to install an I4 trans on a 07K; considerable trimming is necessary to install a dual bolt pattern (I4 and I5) transmission (these are longitudinal type transmissions, nothing to be concerned with here) onto a 07K.
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Thanks for the color on this. I don't see any way the combo I have sitting out here fits into 32.5". He either has an I4 box... or maybe that end of the transaxle case is filled with air to be easily lopped off?
 
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