Another Clutch Operation Thread

jvandyke said:
Tony has recommended cracking open the ouput line at the master and pump until juice squirts in your eye and all over your carpet, then tighten, move to the slave hose banjo fitting and crack that open and pump until a suitable mess is made there, then tighten and with the slave rod slightly extended, start in on the actual bleeder valve at the slave.
Of course, if you've pinched the supply line, all this is useless, super easy to pinch those closed as you bolt up the pedal box.
Click to expand...

Indeed - that is how I approached it - but there is only a trickle out the end fitting, which suggests a restriction in the fluid delivery. In hindsight - with that open, the reservoir full, open & elevated, fluid should pour out in a steady stream with a corresponding level drop...
 
Hmmmm, this now gets UGLY!!

lookforjoe said:
.......which suggests a restriction in the fluid delivery. In hindsight - with that open, the reservoir full, open & elevated, fluid should pour out in a steady stream with a corresponding level drop...
Click to expand...

I have a HORRIBLE suspicion that the new clutch master cyl I have installed (with the fluid input nozzle facing forward, rather than rearward as per the original), may be creating exactly what you have described, Hussein!
With the pedal-box now bolted up in position, the fluid input hose maybe "kinked" and not allowing a FULL flow of fluid into the master cylinder! Aaarrrghhhh! :cry:

cheers (not many), Ian - NZ
 
That certainly is possible, Ian.

It seems that there is a fair amount of space, but likely not so much at the point where the assy comes up against the back space. I lowered my assy., which was easy since I hadn't put anything back yet. Just enough to make sure the hoses all lay over to the right where the dropped ledge is, and made sure they could be pushed/pulled without effort through the cavity.

Old hoses routing for reference :



My reservoir during bleeding:



Using a power bleeder that sucks fluid out the terminal bleed - on the slave in this case. I put some Teflon on the nipple threads so it wouldn't suck air past the threads, being careful to leave the inner tip open where the actual orifice is.

This is what I drew through (much more than system capacity, of course), being careful to refill the reservoir.

This was new fluid mind you, so fair amount of silt in the lines from the MC to the slave. Both slave and hose were replaced last year.



After that, I was able to get some pressure on the pedal, but not full stroke of the slave. Need to bleed it manually now, that there is something. Must have been a large air pocket, as it took some time before my suction flow out the bleeder matched the drop in the reservoir. Started pouring rain around 5, so I was unable to finish it up.
 
Tavalin said:
Where is the bleed valve?
I cannot find it.
V/r, Mike
Click to expand...

9F463DF7-620A-464C-B6C2-5D28F4B211E9_zpsi6chmnpc.jpg


Top of slave cylinder, towards the back near where the hose attaches, on the top surface.
 
Lookforjoe,
Ahhh, got it. Now I know where to bleed the clutch.
Thank-you,
Mike


Nebraska Mike
 
Found that the original clutch reservior was cracked - seeping around the band clamp retainer. Fortunately I had bought three years ago when the original brake reservoir leaked.

D2089D36-CAF1-43D6-8D6A-25D0ACB47ACB_zpsveoejl4u.jpg


Cracked the banjo on the line to the slave, and bled the slave by pushing in the rod. Got a working pedal after that, however engagement is still close to the floor. I need to get my wife to help, so I can watch the slave rod actuation relative to the pedal movement. If no better travel can be achieved with further bleeding, I have to assume the PP is weak. Can't see any other explanation, really. It's not that old, either.
 
Now that's good thinking......!

lookforjoe said:
.......Cracked the banjo on the line to the slave, and bled the slave by pushing in the rod. Got a working pedal after that, however engagement is still close to the floor.....
Click to expand...

Good tip, Hussein!
I will give that a try and see what happens.
There seems to be a SLIGHT sign of fluid emerging from the banjo end of the flexible hose, but not very much.
I considering trying the back-filling of the pipe from the slave back up to the master cyl (EricH trick if I remember?)

cheers, Ian - NZ
 
Just to clarify, I cracked the banjo just to let any potential bubbles out, then tightened it down.
Then I put a 2 ft hose on the bleeder nipple pointing straight up, loosened the nipple, depressed the slave rod, tightened the nipple & repeat 3-4 times, gently pushing the pedal after each rod depression to refill the slave (the piston will stay retracted when you tighten the nipple each time).
Fluid will then rise in the hose. With 6-8" of fluid in the hose, you can then leave the nipple cracked open & stroke the pedal a couple times, as the return will suck back in the fluid in the hose.
Checked the reservoir, and then manually did the slave two more times & I had a strong pedal.
 
Got all that........!!

lookforjoe said:
.....Checked the reservoir, and then manually did the slave two more times & I had a strong pedal.....
Click to expand...

Good tips there, Hussein!! :)
I will 'attack' the little Italian beastie again over the next day or so! :mad3:

Will "report back" with any progress!! :rolleyes2:

cheers, Ian - NZ
 
Good luck!

Mine still grabs close to the floor - I had my wife operate the pedal while I checked the travel :

X1/9 Clutch Actuation Travel


I do have full travel - in fact the lever is hitting the bell housing at the end of the stroke - there is a little notch in the aluminium from it.

I'll try another bleed, but I think my problem has to be mechanical problem with the clutch / PP
 
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Hopefully you don't do what I did in this situation;
assume a bent fork on TO holder, cut the lever, bolt the lever to compensate, blow out the slave rod, get towed, post a million posts here and whine and cry,
Then discover the TO was upside down (installed by PO but reinstalled the same way by me!).
Is your Throw Out bearing upside down?
 
jvandyke said:
Hopefully you don't do what I did in this situation;
assume a bent fork on TO holder, cut the lever, bolt the lever to compensate, blow out the slave rod, get towed, post a million posts here and whine and cry,
Then discover the TO was upside down (installed by PO but reinstalled the same way by me!).
Is your Throw Out bearing upside down?
Click to expand...

I remember that. I'm pretty sure all that took place prior to my engine build/reinstall two years ago - I seem to remember having that in my consciousness when I was putting it all together. I don't recall my T/O having an offset that would make it an up/down install, or there being any markings to indicate such. Of course, I somehow have NO pics of the lever/T/O, etc., to refer to - I managed to take pics of just about every other step & forgot that :( . I sdid install a new T/O, as the previous one was water damaged when my street flooded.

I refurbished my lever arm, had a brass bush made for the bell housing pass through, etc., to make sure there were no problems with loss of throw due to play.

I'm starting to feel like it must be a PP issue, as the pedal effort is high & just doesn't feel 'taut' or crisp. I never measured the stack height of the clutchPP/disc/lightened flywheel - if that were off (disc too thick/thin, flywheel too thin, etc.,) then the pedal travel / engagement would also be out of whack as a result....
 
My TO bearing "looked" symmetrical to me but was indeed clearly stamped "TOP", apparently not clearly enough!
Probably not your problem.
 
Just had to replace a 2 year old centric clutch master that was weeping and then one day finally put the pedal to the floor. The last time I attempted replacement I wound up taking it to Allisons Automotive and had them bleed the system because I could not get the air out of the system.

I read here on the forum that someone used a piece of tubing and an oil squirt can on the bleeder valve and back pressure bled the system. It sounded like a winner so I gave it a try, but incorporating bench bleeding of the master cyl.

And... in under an hour I had the system bled and working! I started with pulling off the plastic reservoir nipple from the new master and manually filling the hole with fluid while the rubber dust plug was still in the line end. I slowly depressed the piston a small amount until I could see the fluid recede and air bubbles escape. I'd keep adding small amounts of fluid as the air bubbles made the fluid recede. Then I put the plastic res elbow back on and installed it in the car. I then connected up the reservoir and hose and added fluid.

Then on the slave cyl side, I got a section of aquarium tubing and fitted it with a clamp over the bleeder nipple. At this point I fitted my oil squirt can to the hose end and pumped the hose full of fluid then pushed the clear hose on the squirt tube end. Then, with a drip pan in place under the dash, I opened the slave bleeder valve and pressure fed the system until it ran out of the disconnected line under the dash. Lots of dirty old fluid came out. I was truly flushing the system :)

Then I pulled the rubber plug off and connected up the line to the master cylinder, and then back to the slave cyl and pressure fed some more fluid until it filled up the reservoir. Believe it or not, then the first time I tried the clutch pedal, I had full operation!

I am totally sold on this method of bleeding the X1/9 clutch and brakes and recommend it highly.
 
The clutch arm moving with very little effort then hitting the bellhousing sounds a lot like when I snapped the bolt that goes through the lever that pushes on the throwout bearing and the shaft that goes down into the bellhousing. Unfortunately the only way I could confirm the bolt was broken was to pull the tranny.

Dishy
 
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