Another Clutch Operation Thread

[lookforjoe]

Solution Found?

The clutch arm moving with very little effort then hitting the bellhousing sounds a lot like when I snapped the bolt that goes through the lever that pushes on the throwout bearing and the shaft that goes down into the bellhousing. Unfortunately the only way I could confirm the bolt was broken was to pull the tranny.

Dishy

This is possibly the issue, although I would expect the clutch to fail completely if there is not permanent connection between the fork and the throw arm.

I just got off the phone with Matt (MWB) - I found that my slave cyl. I bought from them is leaking - however, it also seemed to be hyper-extended. So, the basic problem is mechanical:

1) lever arm has twisted, causing change in pivot angle relationship of fork/lever.

2) grub screw/bolt has sheared/loosened allowing excess movement of lever / reduced movement of fork

So, I'm going to disconnect the slave actuation & check that the lever does not 'feel' separated from the fork - which would indicate a problem with the fork/lever connection.

If that is good, then my vertical lever must be twisted, which is the condition Matt has seen in cases where the slave is hyper-extended, causing the seal to leak out. In that case, I will cut off the lever & reposition it relative to the vertical rod, to ensure that fully depressed, I have approx 3/4" clearance off the bell housing webbing. Right now, the lever is contacting the webbing, I can see the mark.

As the clutch wears, the lever should end up further away from the bell housing, so the 3/4" reference is the one to go by, not the rest position of the lever.

 

[lookforjoe]

Hopefully you don't do what I did in this situation;
assume a bent fork on TO holder, cut the lever, bolt the lever to compensate, blow out the slave rod, get towed, post a million posts here and whine and cry,
Then discover the TO was upside down (installed by PO but reinstalled the same way by me!).
Is your Throw Out bearing upside down?

Jeff, I forgot to ask - did your pedal engagement height (close to floor, mid throw, etc) change when you fixed the T/O, and what was it before & after (for clarification)

 

[jvandyke]

Jeff, I forgot to ask - did your pedal engagement height (close to floor, mid throw, etc) change when you fixed the T/O, and what was it before & after (for clarification)

As I recall yes, engage was low before but came up after correcting the TO install. I remember even removing the bump stop on the firewall to get more travel. The rod/lever was hitting the bell housing (barely) after I modified the lever but even now, after correcting the TO it's close.
Here's the old thread on it, which you were in on so probably already know of;
http://xwebforums.com/forum/index.php?threads/25035/

 

[lookforjoe]

Thanks Jeff

Here's my problem:

Bolt sheared

Fingers have damage

 

[jvandyke]

Are those current pictures? Did you pull the box already?
Those PP fingers look normal to me, no?
Are you surmising about that sheared bolt?

 

[EricH]

Bolt sheared

It looks like it never was far enough in. If so, shearing is no surprise - that bolt is supposed to go all the way through the rod and engage in the far side of the fork so that is loaded in double shear. It doesn't take much for a bolt in single shear to fail.

 

[lookforjoe]

Are those current pictures? Did you pull the box already?
Those PP fingers look normal to me, no?
Are you surmising about that sheared bolt?

Yes, trans is out. Yes, bolt is sheared. Hard to see in the pic, the tips of the fingers have a ridge worn in them.

I dropped the entire control arm / hub / axle & strut, then pulled the trans out

My T/O can only be installed one way - it has an offset plate that prevents incorrect install

Gonna install the reman Marelli starter while I have it apart - mine doesn't like to crank under hot starts.

 

[lookforjoe]

It looks like it never was far enough in. If so, shearing is no surprise - that bolt is supposed to go all the way through the rod and engage in the far side of the fork so that is loaded in double shear. It doesn't take much for a bolt in single shear to fail.

My guess is that I never tightened it properly when I did the lever overhaul. With it loose, it must have backed out, then snapped, being single shear at that point. I wasn't actually that far out when I removed the trans - I pulled it out - fortunately the threads in the rod were unharmed

 

[jvandyke]

Well you found it. You don't play do you? :hammer::hammer::hammer:

 

[lookforjoe]

Well you found it. You don't play do you? :hammer::hammer::hammer:

After all the time spent farting around with the hydraulics, this was a walk in the park

 

[LarryC]

I like the rubber glove over the output flange.

So, short of tack-welding that bolt :rolleyes2:, what is your thinking about securing the bolt for certain this time?

 

[lookforjoe]

So, short of tack-welding that bolt :rolleyes2:, what is your thinking about securing the bolt for certain this time?

Well, I'm using a Volvo bolt - it has the integrated flange head, so no lock split washer to fail, and I think I will flush the lever threads & use red loctite on it. That should do the trick.

 

[ianlawson]

Yep, I'm thinking......!!

.....Then I pulled the rubber plug off and connected up the line to the master cylinder, and then back to the slave cyl and pressure fed some more fluid until it filled up the reservoir. Believe it or not, then the first time I tried the clutch pedal, I had full operation!

I am totally sold on this method of bleeding the X1/9 clutch and brakes and recommend it highly.....

.....that may be the way to do it!!
It seems that the fluid pipe system between m/cyl and slave/cyl needs to be "primed" to eliminate all air before you can achieve any "pedal"!
Certainly worth trying! :nod:

cheers, Ian - NZ

 

[lookforjoe]

put the new clutch in

replaced the original M8 bolts/split washers with Volvo hardware - flanged head, w/ loctite threads. I never did care for the split washers, now however I "hear" Rapunzel every time I see one

Starter was a PITA - had to flip it upside down to get it out past the tin plate

lever fully retracted - T/O up against stop (base of T/O guide sleeve/input shaft seal cover

lever at maximum T/O travel (sleeve end level with T/O guide sleeve)

Around 20mm clearance between bellhousing & lever at this position - you can see the notch where it was contacting before...

After all that, I have proper clutch operation, however, engagement is still relatively close to the bottom of the travel. At least it disengages further up, so shifitng does feel much more normal.

Problem now is that it's running on three cylinders....

 

[lookforjoe]

Those PP fingers look normal to me, no?

Groove worn in fingers:

 

[lookforjoe]

referencing Bernice's post HERE

I have felt that the clutch is engaging too close to the floor.

I'm going to check the pedal total travel setting (170mm) -

I can't however find a setting for the slave rod. I think I just adjusted it so that there was no freeplay. The manual doesn't actually provide any values for this (style with damper spring on rod, outside pivot arm)

 

[lookforjoe]

Played with the pedal freeplay - that does nothing other than set the height to align with the brake pedal. Made no difference to travel. I loosened the push rod to make sure it wasn't preloading the T/O. Pretty much nothing makes a difference. Clutch starts to engage about an 1" off the stop. Operates and engages just fine, just would prefer higher engagement point.

Current clutch is Sachs (sold as Beck Arnley)-

Old one was Valeo - had to change it after water damage

Original, I don't recall

 

[Michael Oxman]

I'm going to tag on here because its related rather than start a new thread. I am changing out my slave cylinder, and unlike the poster, my lever to (i think) the clutch fork is frozen solid. I'm wondering if that is a sign that something is wrong and I'm going to have to drop the transmission or whether there's somethings I can check where I am now. Here's a picture. As you can see, the spring is stuck in the extended position. I don't see this in the service manual.

 

[Dr.Jeff]

Hey Michael, I'm not certain if you are saying (a) the clutch fork pivot rod is rusted frozen, or (b) the slave's push rod is frozen, or (c) the connection between the slave rod and the fork pivot is stuck? I'll use your picture to illustrate (below). Regardless I don't think you will need to drop the trans, at least not initially. All three of the components I mentioned can get corroded and stuck. More on this after the pic.

"A" = black arrow at the bottom, clutch fork pivot rod.
"B" = red arrow at the top, slave cylinder push rod.
"C" = blue arrow in middle, connection between those two.

If it is "a", then you might get it freed up with some penetrating oil after disconnecting the slave and spring. Put it where the rod passes into the trans housing (where the black arrow is pointing). Tap on it gently, possibly add some heat to it. That rod pivots in the transmission housing at two points; at the top (just below where you see it go into the trans) it has a plastic bushing (you might see it sticking through), and at the bottom it rides directly against a hole in the housing. If the rod is stuck, chances are it is the plastic bushing. And that's where the penetrating oil can help.

If it is "b", then you will be replacing it with the new slave cylinder so that will cure itself.

If it "c", then once you remove the slave cylinder you can clean up the parts and it will be fine.

Otherwise if I completely misunderstood, then please clarify the problem and we'll see if a better answer can be offered.

 

[carl]

If the arm coming out of the trans is frozen then you will have to remove the gearbox to fix it. Your slave cylinder looks really ancient and the bleed screw looks like it's probably frozen too so plan on replacing that as well as the rubber hose going to it. Does the arm on the transmission move when you step on the clutch?