Camshaft whistle issue

Yves, can you tell if the play is on the cam box journal or on the cam itself? Normally I'd expect the aluminum cam box to be the victim of wear. But with this cam being a reground item I'm wondering if a journal on it failed. Perhaps you are able to take a quick measurement of both to find where the wear is happening? Thanks.
 
What I have found, I have "Play" on journal, with my hand moving up down right left you can hear the tick noise.
Can you mike the cam and cambox to see which is out of spec and/or out of round?
The cam journals will be easy, an ordinary micrometer will do the trick. The cambox journals will be trickier of you don't have the right tools or know a decent machinist.
 
Numbers and detail pictures ...
In summary the D223 cam journals are out of spec and the cambox have also with evident trace of wear.

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Looking at the numbers, it appears the cam is much worse than the cambox.... across the board. Being a reground cam made from a used cam, I wonder how its journals spec when it is new (before ever installing or running). Perhaps the company wound up with it undersized after machining in order to get the journals clean and true? Or perhaps the cam journals lost their surface hardening when they were resurfaced, and not rehardened?
 
My measuring tools are not professional tools but even if there is a percentage error the values are all down. I measured the new Euro Cam with the same tools and the values were all in the right range.
 
I think if you had a set of V blocks and measured the cam runout with a dial gauge, that the cam would spec up as bent....

Euro cam will probably perform better anyway, so a positive step forward.


SteveC
 
I think if you had a set of V blocks and measured the cam runout with a dial gauge, that the cam would spec up as bent....


SteveC
Set of matched Vee blocks o a surface plate of proven/known flatness or a good lathe between centers or "bench centers" and dial indicator on stand to check run out of a cam or similar.

If the cam is warped, the cam will slowly "bore out" the cam housing rendering the cam housing damaged with oversized bearing bores.

There are a lot of things that can easily go very wrong, yet not always appreciated and often taken for granted due to the fine and small tolerances involved which is not visible by human eye..


Bernice
 
Set of matched Vee blocks o a surface plate of proven/known flatness or a good lathe between centers or "bench centers" and dial indicator on stand to check run out of a cam or similar.

If the cam is warped, the cam will slowly "bore out" the cam housing rendering the cam housing damaged with oversized bearing bores.

There are a lot of things that can easily go very wrong, yet not always appreciated and often taken for granted due to the fine and small tolerances involved which is not visible by human eye..


Bernice
Unfortunately I don't have the vee block.
I couldn't prove anything but we can suspect that the cam probably has something out of the norm and the cambox has inherited by default.

Sh... happens!
 
Unfortunately I don't have the vee block.
I couldn't prove anything but we can suspect that the cam probably has something out of the norm and the cambox has inherited by default.

Sh... happens!
More often than not a camshaft will have centering dimples at each end, which would facilitate mounting it in a suitable sized lathe, and thus mounted would allow another option for using a dial indicator with probe to determine whether it's bent or there are out-of-round journals.
 
Today I have installed the new Euro camshaft with a used cam tower not shaved with right spec for journals etc...
The cambox gasket have about~ 0. 015 in / 0.37mm of thickness.

Unfortunately, I was not able to have the correct valve clearance gap…
The lowest thickness shim I have is 3.30 mm and the valve clearance is only 0.04 mm (0.0015 in)

I have found a ticker cambox gasket (0.031 in / 0.78 mm) and lower thickness size shims (Starting at 2.55 mm).

With the combo, a thicker gasket and thinner shims I hope I will be able to adjust the correct valve clearance.

Waiting for parts… I wish that will solve the issue.


The documentation for valve clearance with the D223 regrind is 0.012 in for exhaust and intake.
The Fiat service manual for the original US FI camshaft is:
Intake 0.011 – 0.014 in
Exhaust 0.015 – 0.018 in

Question:
What is the right valve clearance for the Euro camshaft # 4331512 ????



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The documentation for valve clearance with the D223 regrind is 0.12 in for exhaust and intake.
The Fiat service manual for the original US FI camshaft is:
Intake 0.011 – 0.014 in
Exhaust 0.015 – 0.018 in
I don't know the answer but this difference is massive!
 
Today I have installed the new Euro camshaft with a used cam tower not shaved with right spec for journals etc...
The cambox gasket have about~ 0. 015 in / 0.37mm of thickness.

Unfortunately, I was not able to have the correct valve clearance gap…
The lowest thickness shim I have is 3.30 mm and the valve clearance is only 0.04 mm (0.0015 in)

I have found a ticker cambox gasket (0.031 in / 0.78 mm) and lower thickness size shims (Starting at 2.55 mm).



Question:
What is the right valve clearance for the Euro camshaft # 4331512 ????
0.30 - 0.35mm is the standard paper cambox base gasket

I stock oversize cambox base gaskets in 0.75 / 0.85 and 0.95mm

I recently had to use a 0.75mm gasket in a service as I came across (ground) shims inside an engine, where one shim was down to 3.25mm, 6 of the 8 shims had been "surfaced" on the backside on a thicknesser / belt sander or similar ... I had to remove the cambox to put in a thicker gasket, and replaced all the damaged shims, dodginess like that goes straight into the bin. The head showed signs of having been "reconditioned" on this car, there was lots of permatex glue on the cambox base and cover gaskets, even though the car is a documented 75k km car, with history... didn't come with a file of receipts though so no idea who was responsible.

WARNING. DO NOT use shims with less than 3.25mm thickness, thinner than this the lip of the tappet bucket will stand proud from the shim, the cam lobe will strike this raised edge and destroy the lobe in short order.

if you're having to use a thicker cambox base gasket the usual reason(s) are;

1) the valve seat in the head has been recut too deep, this results in the valve stem protruding too far past the valve guide, this causes two possible issues... a) installed valve spring height is too tall, resulting in low seated valve spring tension and b) you get down to the smaller end of the range of valve lash shims

2) the valve itself has been refaced a lot, this sits the valve further into the seat, again causing two possible issues ... a) the valve spring installed height / spring tension problem, and (more importantly usually) the valve head "margin" becomes very thin... it doesn't have much opportun ity to drop heat, and the valve is likely to burn

3) the valve stem is stretching... I've seen this happen a few times, poor quality parts usually... I had a customer that over the course of about 18 months came in for service, / tappet adjustment.. each time one of the exhaust valves clearance would close up, even though less than 20k km before I had correctly set the lash, and only that one valve was closing up... turn out the head had been "reconditioned" a while before he started coming to me, and they had replaced one exhaust valve...

I like 0.30mm on the intake, and 0.40mm on the exhaust as the most suitable lash clearance.

On a new head, with fresh seats and stock length valves, the "nominal" standard shim thickness is 4.00, and the usual variance is about + or - 0.2mm at most. A really good valve job IMO should have the shims at less than 0.05 + or - from the "nominal" shim thickness. Cylinder heads vary a small amount in "thickness" even when brand new, as do standard camboxes... I have seen about 0.15mm difference from one uncut cambox to another...

SteveC
 
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The documentation for valve clearance with the D223 regrind is 0.12 in for exhaust and intake.
The Fiat service manual for the original US FI camshaft is:
Intake 0.011 – 0.014 in
Exhaust 0.015 – 0.018 in
I agree with @Steve Thomas, that's a huge difference. I wonder if that larger gap on the D223 cam is contributing to the wear issues somehow?
 
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The documentation for valve clearance with the D223 regrind is 0.12 in for exhaust and intake.
I agree with @Steve Thomas , that's a huge difference.
I think the 0.12 in is a typo/mis-read - the MWB data shows .012 in lash for int/exh, but it's a bit low-res:

The euro clearance came up in this thread too:
 
I think the 0.12 in is a typo/mis-read - the MWB data shows .012 in lash for int/exh, but it's a bit low-res:

The euro clearance came up in this thread too:
Your are right typo error .. 0.012 in
 
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0.30 - 0.35mm is the standard paper cambox base gasket

I stock oversize cambox base gaskets in 0.75 / 0.85 and 0.95mm

I recently had to use a 0.75mm gasket in a service as I came across (ground) shims inside an engine, where one shim was down to 3.25mm, 6 of the 8 shims had been "surfaced" on the backside on a thicknesser / belt sander or similar ... I had to remove the cambox to put in a thicker gasket, and replaced all the damaged shims, dodginess like that goes straight into the bin. The head showed signs of having been "reconditioned" on this car, there was lots of permatex glue on the cambox base and cover gaskets, even though the car is a documented 75k km car, with history... didn't come with a file of receipts though so no idea who was responsible.

WARNING. DO NOT use shims with less than 3.25mm thickness, thinner than this the lip of the tappet bucket will stand proud from the shim, the cam lobe will strike this raised edge and destroy the lobe in short order.

if you're having to use a thicker cambox base gasket the usual reason(s) are;

1) the valve seat in the head has been recut too deep, this results in the valve stem protruding too far past the valve guide, this causes two possible issues... a) installed valve spring height is too tall, resulting in low seated valve spring tension and b) you get down to the smaller end of the range of valve lash shims

2) the valve itself has been refaced a lot, this sits the valve further into the seat, again causing two possible issues ... a) the valve spring installed height / spring tension problem, and (more importantly usually) the valve head "margin" becomes very thin... it doesn't have much opportun ity to drop heat, and the valve is likely to burn

3) the valve stem is stretching... I've seen this happen a few times, poor quality parts usually... I had a customer that over the course of about 18 months came in for service, / tappet adjustment.. each time one of the exhaust valves clearance would close up, even though less than 20k km before I had correctly set the lash, and only that one valve was closing up... turn out the head had been "reconditioned" a while before he started coming to me, and they had replaced one exhaust valve...

I like 0.30mm on the intake, and 0.40mm on the exhaust as the most suitable lash clearance.

On a new head, with fresh seats and stock length valves, the "nominal" standard shim thickness is 4.00, and the usual variance is about + or - 0.2mm at most. A really good valve job IMO should have the shims at less than 0.05 + or - from the "nominal" shim thickness. Cylinder heads vary a small amount in "thickness" even when brand new, as do standard camboxes... I have seen about 0.15mm difference from one uncut cambox to another...

SteveC
Steve you are absolutely right form the minimum thickness of the shims versus the tappet bucket.

In the worst case maybe I will need to remove head and shave a bit of the tip of the valves.
 
In the worst case maybe I will need to remove head and shave a bit of the tip of the valves.
That would be an acceptable way to gain up to maybe 0.5mm of extra clearance... if done on the right machine to ensure the tip of the valve was still perfectly square.

It's not uncommon for OHV V8's and other pushrod actuated valve setups to get refaced on the tip of the valve stem to rectify any pitting from the rocker arm, so sure you could reface the valve stem to shorten it a small amount.

SteveC
 
I think the 0.12 in is a typo/mis-read - the MWB data shows .012 in lash for int/exh, but it's a bit low-res:

The euro clearance came up in this thread too:
Your are right typo error .. 0.012 in
Thanks, that makes more sense.
 
The recommended clearances for my cam was 0.012" intake, 0.014" exhaust. I've heard that the exhaust clearances are usually a bit more than the intake because the valve runs hotter and expands more.
 
My car develop Camshaft whistle issue.
With the stethoscope I can clearly hear the whistle came out from the camshaft behinded gear side.

It's more obvious when the engine has reached the normal temperature.
With the stethoscope I can confirm it is not the Cam timing belt or belt tension Bearing
The head is a high performance head from MWB, camshaft is 223 degree from MWB, the cam box was milled about .024 to use lowest valve shim thickness

The whistle start this summer season...
It is possible the whistle come from the Camshaft Shaft Silicone Seal ?
The cam seal was replaced two years ago and have be lubricated before installation


What is your opinion?

Video Camshaft whistle issue

Thanks
Hello, I have a 128 with the same issue, I found it was the buckets sliding in and out of the cam box, cam box is warn out a bit , try and source one with less miles, good luck
 
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