Distribution point completly burnt, is this normal ?

[Chromaphase]

Hello everyone,
It has been a while since I posted my carburetor problems. Not it's all good thanks.
I had another problem recently with a bad point for the distributor.
This problem gave the car a very bad running, misfiring like crazy.
Anyway I tried to adjust the point but it was quite worn out.

Finally after 15km, it actually completly broke and melted.
Here the photo of it.

I wanted to change to an electronic one but they are quite expensive.
I actually found a point replacement for only 7$. Original specs.

Car is running good now but I'm not quite sure I want to drive it, knowing it could melt or break at any moments on the road.
Should I just buy the electronic one ?

Or this one melted becasue it was too old anyway and if i got a new one It would be fine for a while ?

When I see how a point is working in the distributor, a piece of plastic touching a rotative metal cam at high speed...
I'm thinking It doesn't seem like a very good idea to begin with to be honest.

Thanks for your feedbacks !

Matthieu

 

[Steve Thomas]

Points work fine. They need to be adjusted from time to time and cleaned too [with a points file] and eventually replaced. The basic design might look crude but they work well and a new set will last years if looked after.

 

[dllubin]

Hello everyone,
It has been a while since I posted my carburetor problems. Not it's all good thanks.
I had another problem recently with a bad point for the distributor.
This problem gave the car a very bad running, misfiring like crazy.
Anyway I tried to adjust the point but it was quite worn out.

Finally after 15km, it actually completly broke and melted.
Here the photo of it.

I wanted to change to an electronic one but they are quite expensive.
I actually found a point replacement for only 7$. Original specs.

Car is running good now but I'm not quite sure I want to drive it, knowing it could melt or break at any moments on the road.
Should I just buy the electronic one ?

Or this one melted becasue it was too old anyway and if i got a new one It would be fine for a while ?

When I see how a point is working in the distributor, a piece of plastic touching a rotative metal cam at high speed...
I'm thinking It doesn't seem like a very good idea to begin with to be honest.

Thanks for your feedbacks !

Matthieu

A bad condenser can wipe the points out pretty quick. If you have not replaced the condenser for a long time, that could possibly be the problem. The other thing to watch out for with a points distributor is make sure the ignition switch is off when the engine not running. Otherwise, you run the risk of the points being closed and supplying max current to the coil primary continuously. That will burn out the coil. I'm currently using a points distributor and it works fine even at 8K+. They may take slightly more maintenance than an electronic distributor but not a big deal.

The plastic piece touching the 4 lobe cam will last a long time but there should be a small amount of grease applied (see manual).

 

[EricH]

15000 km is a long time to run one set of points, I think of them as a 5000 mile routine replacement item.

The most common cause of burning is that the gap is too small or the condensor is bad.

The point gap is a fussy adjustment in the car (my '74s don't even have the access panel from the spare tire well) so I pull the dizzy and set the points at the bench, gives me an excuse to play with a timing light

 

[dllubin]

15000 km is a long time to run one set of points, I think of them as a 5000 mile routine replacement item.

The most common cause of burning is that the gap is too small or the condensor is bad.

The point gap is a fussy adjustment in the car (my '74s don't even have the access panel from the spare tire well) so I pull the dizzy and set the points at the bench, gives me an excuse to play with a timing light

I guess that would make it tough to use a dwell meter.

 

[EricH]

I guess that would make it tough to use a dwell meter.

Well, yes, kinda....
I have a dwell meter - since back in the 1970s when everything was points - and I do use it to check after I've put the distributor back in. It always tells me that I got the gap right, or close enough to right not to worry about it.

Now my fantasy is to find a used Sun distributor testing machine in a barn somewhere....

 

[Chromaphase]

A bad condenser can wipe the points out pretty quick. If you have not replaced the condenser for a long time, that could possibly be the problem. The other thing to watch out for with a points distributor is make sure the ignition switch is off when the engine not running. Otherwise, you run the risk of the points being closed and supplying max current to the coil primary continuously. That will burn out the coil. I'm currently using a points distributor and it works fine even at 8K+. They may take slightly more maintenance than an electronic distributor but not a big deal.

The plastic piece touching the 4 lobe cam will last a long time but there should be a small amount of grease applied (see manual).

Thanks,
I see, it would make sense to use a bit of grease.
Would you know what kind of grease is needed ?

Its funny you are talking about turning off the ignition switch while not running... because it's exactly what happened to me.
So I was going somewhere. And then the point completly burnt out.
My friend gave me a tow with his car. I put the ignition switch on because I wanted to have my break lights for safety.

When I arrived home, my coil was fuming, literally boiling.

So why I'm asking you guys it's because my X motor has been redone recently, and I don't like having a point issue that will kill other part of my motor that is running fine.

Any con's of using the electronic one beside the price ?
I bought a new condenser for 3$ as well, I will replace it then as well while I'm running with the point.

I don't know I have PTSD of this point breaking. First getting back with huge misfiring, going on 5km\h giving a battering to my engine to back home. Then after trying to fix it, got my car tow and fried the coil...

 

[Rupunzell]

Any con's of using the electronic one beside the price ?
I bought a new condenser for 3$ as well, I will replace it then as well while I'm running with the point.

Loose the points ignition, they may appear to be simple with few items to go wrong ... except there are SO many items that do and will go SO very wrong with points. Quality of points for ignition systems today are of absolutely Meh.. quality. essentially Junk. Neighbor with a Triumph TR250 installed a "new" set of points, went for about 4 miles before the plastic bits failed.. Years ago, installed a "new" set of points into the TR6 coupled with a MSD ignition, points failed after about 100 hours running.. Again, the plastic bits & metal contacts died..

Fact and reality today, quality of aftermarket points is beyond dismal..
Points were one of the first "get rid of them" items for the moto industry decades ago. The solution was electronic ignition which is absolute item in any petro Otto cycle engine today.

There are no negatives to EI except cost.. Doing the conversion from points ignition to Electronic means using the Fiat oem Bosch system.. then add on proven EI bits if needed. There is a very real reason for using the oem Bosch unit, it is higher quality in every way compared to the Marellli system, oem Bosch parts like cap/rotor and etc are still available, the inductive pickup signal is compatible with proven good aftermarket EI units like MSD.. Stay away from the low cost "replacement" distributors, they are Meh quality.. could function for a while.. then not any more.. Yes, taken one of these apart, not a quality unit.

Going this route, requires a proven and known good Bosch EI distributor from a 79' and later USA exxe. The Bosch distributor should be taken apart, cleaned, gone over to replace any worn parts as needed. The upgrade from the Bosch EI unit would be the basic MSD EI unit, works with the stock Bosch coil minus the oem resistor..

The tach signal from the MSD works with the 1979' and later exxe tach..

Once this is did, all the ignition system problems goes away.. in very nice ways.


Bernice

 

[dllubin]

If you are going to buy an OEM Fiat Bosch distributor, look for one used in an FI model. The 79 and 80 carb cars have a centrifugal advance curve optimized for emissions, not performance. Of course, you could get it recurved.

 

[Rupunzell]

If you are going to buy an OEM Fiat Bosch distributor, look for one used in an FI model. The 79 and 80 carb cars have a centrifugal advance curve optimized for emissions, not performance. Of course, you could get it recurved.

Yes...

Note, once above 4,000 RPM distributor curve not gonna matter that much..
Above 4,000 RPM is where the Lampredi SOHC should be run most of the time..


Bernice

 

[dllubin]

Yes...

Note, once above 4,000 RPM distributor curve not gonna matter that much..
Above 4,000 RPM is where the Lampredi SOHC should be run most of the time..


Bernice

I would agree that if you are having fun driving an X, you would likely be in the 4K+ range. That might not be the best approach to negotiate bumper to bumper city traffic and recurving a distributor is not such a big deal that one would need to live with that compromise.

The carb model curve has a couple of issues. For one, it does not reach max advance until 5500 rpm. That is probably about 2000 rpm higher than optimal. The second issue is that it has more advance than is needed. Assuming that you set max advance somewhere in the 3K to 4K range, there may be very little advance at idle. That may be managable with the stock cam, but a number of performance cams require a fair amount of advance at idle. Low compression ratio like these cars come with also pushes the optimal static advance toward more advance. The curve on the FI version addresses both of these problems. It sets the max advance at 3500 rpm and cuts total centrifugal advance by 7 degrees.

If spending money to buy a Bosch distributor, why go for the ones that are compromised unless you have a 79 or 80 X that needs to pass smog (or just a really good deal)?

I actually have a 79 Bosch distributor which I would like to recurve and use one of these days but currently it has twice as much centrifugal advance as I need. Meanwhile, the stock Ducelier distributor that I recurved in the 70s gets me by just fine whether at idle or 8K+. The points versus electronics maintenance and reliability issue is real and should certainly be a consideration. In my case, I've only been putting a couple of hundred miles per year on the car since I got it back on the road so I'll likely be long gone before the points need to be changed again!

 

[Steve Thomas]

As I understand it, changing a carby/points X to an EI is not a simple as "take points of put EI on". We are talking replacing the distributor completly and then I think there are wiring changes too? All good but I think we are answering the question with too much assumed knowledge. As to points? Well, yeah, if you use rubbish cheapy parts, you will have trouble - on any system on any car. So, don't buy garbage. Plenty of engines out there that rev higher harder than ours and they got points.

 

[dllubin]

As I understand it, changing a carby/points X to an EI is not a simple as "take points of put EI on". We are talking replacing the distributor completly and then I think there are wiring changes too? All good but I think we are answering the question with too much assumed knowledge. As to points? Well, yeah, if you use rubbish cheapy parts, you will have trouble - on any system on any car. So, don't buy garbage. Plenty of engines out there that rev higher harder than ours and they got points.

I think that the conversion could be made pretty simple using the Bosch distributor and EI box along with the stock cables. If going for something more exotic your point about "assumed knowledge" would very much come into play.

In the close to 50 years I've had the car, I've only changed the points a few times and that was preventative maintenance, not for solving a problem. For quite a few years, the points drove a capacitive discharge ignition. That gives them a much easier life as the current through them and the voltage across them is very small compared to the Kettering ignition setup that comes with the car. I should probably fix it (bad SCR) and put it back in.

 

[Steve Thomas]

For quite a few years, the points drove a capacitive discharge ignition.

Ran points on my rotaries. And a CDI too. On my rally engine, the new points fitted when the engine was built lasted 9+ years. Yeah, gapped and cleaned as required. That car/engine was my daily driver as well - mild port and spent 99% of its life at the top end of the rev range and beyond! 9 years of it - was replaced by my first X

 

[Alex(Tenerife)]

If replacing point for EI, why not use a lumenition kit? Do you guys not get that across the pond?

I never used one myself but hear good things. Back when I had carbs, I swapped for a fiat uno EI distributor which seemed to work very well. I know you didn't get those and they have almost all gone to the big scrapyard in the sky so very hard to find here any more. Anyway that is the only reason I never tried the lumenition system.

 

[Chromaphase]

Thanks everyone for your feedbacks, I have to say the points on my Lancia Gamma works fine too.
But you know it's like the dirty and rare 38ADLD on my lancia Gamma is working perfectly as well since day 1.
Yet the carb in my X is always trouble whatever i change on it, clean it, take care of it.
It's impossible to find any replacement for my lancia gamma carb or whatever piece so I'm just glad it works for now.

I'm trying to make sure I won't have problem with the points in the future because I will have other parts to worry about I'm pretty sure !
And as I say, I don't want find myself in a situation where the quality of the material is faulty, and then I have misfiring... and I'm destroying my engine because a tiny piece of plastic melted.

Could I just install this : https://www.classicautoelec.com/en/electronic-ignition-kit-fiat/11922-product.html
Seems easy to install and no need to re-do the timing (saving cost as I cannot do it myself)

Let me know !

 

[dllubin]

Thanks everyone for your feedbacks, I have to say the points on my Lancia Gamma works fine too.
But you know it's like the dirty and rare 38ADLD on my lancia Gamma is working perfectly as well since day 1.
Yet the carb in my X is always trouble whatever i change on it, clean it, take care of it.
It's impossible to find any replacement for my lancia gamma carb or whatever piece so I'm just glad it works for now.

I'm trying to make sure I won't have problem with the points in the future because I will have other parts to worry about I'm pretty sure !
And as I say, I don't want find myself in a situation where the quality of the material is faulty, and then I have misfiring... and I'm destroying my engine because a tiny piece of plastic melted.

Could I just install this : https://www.classicautoelec.com/en/electronic-ignition-kit-fiat/11922-product.html
Seems easy to install and no need to re-do the timing (saving cost as I cannot do it myself)

Let me know !

I would be a bit surprised if you did not need to reset the timing after you do the conversion. It is not very difficult to do. You just need a timing light.

 

[Rupunzell]

Thanks everyone for your feedbacks, I have to say the points on my Lancia Gamma works fine too.
But you know it's like the dirty and rare 38ADLD on my lancia Gamma is working perfectly as well since day 1.
Yet the carb in my X is always trouble whatever i change on it, clean it, take care of it.
It's impossible to find any replacement for my lancia gamma carb or whatever piece so I'm just glad it works for now.

I'm trying to make sure I won't have problem with the points in the future because I will have other parts to worry about I'm pretty sure !
And as I say, I don't want find myself in a situation where the quality of the material is faulty, and then I have misfiring... and I'm destroying my engine because a tiny piece of plastic melted.

Could I just install this : https://www.classicautoelec.com/en/electronic-ignition-kit-fiat/11922-product.html
Seems easy to install and no need to re-do the timing (saving cost as I cannot do it myself)

Let me know !

That appears to be an Pertronix unit..

Pertronix Ignition

PerTronix manufactures the aftermarket's finest ignition products for enthusiasts who want to upgrade the spark in their system resulting in a noticeable gain in horsepower. PerTronix is renowned for our Ignitor Series Electronic Conversion Kits, HEI Performance Modules, Flame-Thrower Billet...

pertronixbrands.com

Not recommended, they do work within limits.

There is no escape from the complexity of dealing with altering the ignition system. This is the hash reality of points based ignition systems today due to the Meh quality of points made by aftermarket suppliers. The harsh reality is, the future for points is uncertain due to the harsh realties of aftermarket parts today.

The workable and proven solution is to do the oem Bosch EI conversion. Yes, this demands resources and funding to get this done properly.
This is the way forward and the way to assure the ignition system problem does not re-occur.

This is an example of the one-cent part causing a catastrophic failure..

As for Mazda rotary points, Mazda went to a inductive EI system since the later versions of the 12A.. they work, reliable and durable..

At this point in petro engine history, there is zero reasons to run a point based ignitions system unless the moto involved lives in a trophy case.

Bernice

 

[Chromaphase]

That appears to be an Pertronix unit..

Pertronix Ignition

PerTronix manufactures the aftermarket's finest ignition products for enthusiasts who want to upgrade the spark in their system resulting in a noticeable gain in horsepower. PerTronix is renowned for our Ignitor Series Electronic Conversion Kits, HEI Performance Modules, Flame-Thrower Billet...

pertronixbrands.com

Not recommended, they do work within limits.

Ok Thanks,
Yeah I got the liunk for the european reseller it seems.
What do you mean not recommended, is it no good

i don't have the budget right now to change the whole distribution, I'm going to be honest...

 

[Steve Thomas]

they work, reliable and durable.

and so are points. The primary reason that everybody went to EI is the ability to integrate higher levels of control with FI to make emissions control easier. In fact early EI are not reliable - fair enough, early anything tends not to be reliable. Yes, if you have the cash, an EI conversion is a good thing but that is not to say that a points set up is unworkable.