I think I bought a lemon.....

My sympathies...

Hey Willy. So sorry for your troubles. It's difficult to say at this point just what happened. Many possible explanations for the plug damage: something could have been ingested into that cylinder or perhaps one of the valves broke off and hit it....could be lots of reasons. Maybe one of the valve shims dislodged and jammed the valve. Maybe...

But is strange that all the other cylinders were affected too....

I guess it is possible that somehow the cam timing got out of whack and bent some of the valves - maybe one bent and then broke ?

I still think it is worthwhile to yank the valve cover for a look-see. If you still can, set the cam timing marks to #4 TDC, and see if the cam is properly in phase. Look around at the shims and check the valve clearances. Something should become obvious....
 
Hi Tony,

It's a 454 Big Block Chevy, Gen4 if I remember correctly. That was a fresh build using brand new Manley stainless valves.....

My machinist buddy thinks that it was a defect in the manufacture of the valve, an improper weld between the head and stem.
 
My Plan....

With my limited knowledge, here is my plan for tonight.

No. 1) Remove the upper timing belt cover (2 bolts)
No. 2) Loosen the timing belt tensioner to loosen the timing belt and remove the timing belt
No. 3) Remove the cam pulley (1 Bolt - order new red aluminum one:thumbsup:)
No. 4) Disconnect carb linkage and remove cam cover (6 nuts)
No. 5) Remove cam tower (12 bolts, I think, 6 outside, 6 inside)

Up to this point, do I need to drain the coolant? Can I then just lift the cam tower off the head and see the pistons?? Of course, the cam shaft will still be in place in the cam tower. I'm also thinking at this point I don't need to worry about the timing marks as it is all coming apart. Is that correct?
 
cam cover...

pulled the cam cover and everything "looked" ok, but I have no idea what I was looking for. The cam was obviously there and the lobs were pushing down on the valves. I'm going to start disassembling tonight to see what I can find. If all goes well, hoping to get the cam tower off completely and see the top of the pistons. Once I get that far, I'll take lots of pics.
 
Not knowing details $1100 seems a bit high unless it is all freshly rebuilt by a compitent builder.

I'm really sorry to hear of your troubles. It does sound to me that you broke or bent a valve, as mentioned above, the piston really cannot come in contact with the plug. My guess is the valve broke, was wedged against the plug, then with the plug was removed fell down on to the piston and is now preventing the piston to reach the top of travel.

If you are lucky you might get away with some head work and new a new valve, that does not explain what happened to dmage the valve however.

Further tear down should reaval that cause. I'm still thinking the cam pully is slipping on the cam.

The 1500 4 speed combo is a good way to go, minimal changes to the car, you would need to keep the starter and flywheel from the 1300 (or swap the ring gear from the 1300 to the 1500 flywheel). If you choose to use a 5 speed you would need to change out the wheel spindles.

I recently built a 1300 with new pistons and valves, I'll have to look at my reciepts when I get home to have accurate numbers. I approcahed the cost of the 1500 drive train, but it is essentially a new engine. I'll post the actual costs later this evening.

Hang in there, it's all fixable, but I know you're disappointed that it happened.
 
You will not see the pistons until the head it off.
No problem with the coolant with the cam tower, you will lose coolant when you pull the head. You will also lose coolant when you pull the intake manifold.

If the cam pully is torqued properly you will have a difficult time removing the bolt with the timing belt off... since it is going to be replaced you migh want to try to break the bolt loose before you remove the belt. Or once the belt is off you can use it like a strap wrench with a pair of vice grips to hold the wheel while loosening the bolt.
 
costs....

Thanks... It will be good to know what kind of money is involved. I'm thinking, cam pulley, may as well replace all the valves and likely the pistons/rings, timing belt and tensioner. Hoping I didn't damage the actual head, but I guess we will see. All new seals when she goes back together. On the plus side, there are a few oil leaks, so I guess they're all going to get fixed now:)
 
Nope, to see the pistons the head has to come off.

Unless a local parts store has an LED fiberoptic inspection camera to loan out, kinda like this:
http://youtu.be/ORPbhf21i6k

IIRC, that could be a whole other kettle of stinky fish, too, as again IIRC the 1300 uses all studs to secure the head to the block. Conceptually and actually a superior system than head bolts, except that the steel of the studs and the aluminum of the heads can corrode together to the point where they might as well be welded together.

But again IIRC did you not say this engine is a recent rebuild? If so you would think popping the head off should be a piece of cake.:):drink:
 
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WILLY... CALL BOB BROWN NOW!

http://xwebforums.com/forum/index.php?posts/205844/...

Reserve this engine and trans for yourself. He'll give you details. I'll PM you his phone number. You'll also want to get the other parts necessary to do the upgrade... and I'm almost POSITIVE he has them at a reasonable price.

If your engine proves to be more of problem and not just valves... you actually be HAPPY you did this. I'll be worth the trip to New Hampshire!
 
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cam pulley bolt...

thanks for the tip, I will make sure to loosen the cam pulley bolt before letting the timing belt go. It was loose a few days ago, so it should be easy to get off.

As for the coolant, hopefully, I can leave that for tonight. I'm hoping to get the cam cover and the cam tower off tonight. I think that will be enough. If you guys can tell me the next steps, i.e., intake manifold and carb, hoping to leave the carb on the intake manifold and take it off as one piece. Of course, I will disconnect the fuel lines and block them off somehow. Hopefully, just screw an old bolt into the end of the line. Then I think the head would be next, but I need to know what else to take off before attempting to pull the head.
 
You should be able to leave the carb on the intake.

To pull the head you will need to remove intake and exhaust manifold.
Thermostat housing (or coolant lines from pipes to radiator)
heater hose.
Varios wires to sensors clearly label the wires, and take pictures before disassemble so you have a guide to put them back.

You should pull the distributor, not becuase it is in the way, but it gives a bit more room, and will prevent any damage to it.

Water pump and alternator can remain on the block,(you would want to remove if and when you drop the block).

That should get the head off, as mentions they can stick to the studs (due to corrosion between the aluminun head and steel studs). There is a tool that will get it apart.

If you can get the 1500 from Bob Brown you are likely miles ahead in the game.
 
Penetrating oil on manifold studs.

Right now, and again a number of times over the next day or days, put penetrating oil (such as PB Blaster or a mix of automatic transmission fluid and acetone) on the manifold nuts. It is nice to avoid broken studs.

They are on the engine side of the exhaust manifold and intake manifold. some are hard to see. A socket wrench with a universal joint helps. An impact wrench reduces the chance of broken studs as well.

Yes, talk to Bob Brown as referenced below...

Paul Davock
 
WildWilly said:
The guys is asking $1,100 for the engine and trans, at least it looks like the trans is included. I'll start the teardown process and see how it goes.
Click to expand...

If that's what he's asking, he won't sell it out from under you any time soon... take your time.
 
WildWilly said:
pulled the cam cover and everything "looked" ok, but I have no idea what I was looking for. The ca
Click to expand...

You're looking for big gaps when the cam lobe is pointing up and not bearing on the shim in the top of the cam bucket at all. The correct clearance are all below .020", so if you see something like .100" or worse, you have a bent valve. (FWIW, that's where I'd be betting at even money, given the loose cam bolt and top-end noise).

But this is a bit beside the point now, as the plug damage means that the head has to come off.
 
h
WildWilly said:
Up to this point, do I need to drain the coolant? Can I then just lift the cam tower off the head and see the pistons??
Click to expand...

You don't need to drain the coolant until you are separating the head from the block or the intake manifold from the head. Your '78 will let you take the head off with both manifolds attached, and I recommend that you do that.

Because you have a fairly recent rebuild, you're not likely to have the problem where the aluminum head has galvanically welded itself to the steel studs (1300 - five studs and five bolts attach the head to the block) so the standard head removal techniques will work.

Take off the cambox, remove the five bolts and the five nuts on the studs. Separate the exhaust from the manifold at the downpipe. Disconnect everything else that needs to be disconnected - radiator hoses, sensor wires, whatever. Whack the head with a rubber mallet or a steel hammer on the other end of a piece of 2x4 (don't hit the head directly with a steel hammer, you'll crack it). Try lifting the head off. When it refuses to move, feed a length of rope into each sparkplug opening until you've completely packed the cylinder, then turn the motor over with a wrench on the crank pulley (or if you're brave, hit the starter - once!). The head will lift off the block and then it just takes time and some copious and creative swearing to get it the rest of the way off.
 
first major report.....

OK, so the cam cover is off, the cam tower is off. I think I know what might have caused it. The cam pulley bolt was just in by a few threads and easy to remove. To save my sanity, I basically put any bolt or nut back in its place, rather than try and label them all, so once the cam tower was out I went to put the pulley bolt back in for safe keeping. It gets about ½ a turn and brings up. I'm convinced its the wrong thread for the cam and was never really in there properly. Therefore at some point it became loose enough for something to happen. Also, it appears that there is a dimple in the cam pulley itself and perhaps a pin should be protruding from the camshaft to hit this dimple to line things up and make sure they stay that way. If there is supposed to be a pin sticking out of the cam shaft, it ain't no more!! Almost looks like something was sheared off. But I really don't know what should be on the end of the cam shaft. Can any of you guys shed some light on that?? Well once the cam tower was off, I took a few pictures. One of these things is not like the others......

http://diamondl.ca/fiat/engine/valve_1.jpg
http://diamondl.ca/fiat/engine/valve_2.jpg
http://diamondl.ca/fiat/engine/valve_3.jpg
http://diamondl.ca/fiat/engine/valve_4.jpg
http://diamondl.ca/fiat/engine/valve_5.jpg
http://diamondl.ca/fiat/engine/valve_6.jpg

So tomorrow night it will be drain the oil and coolant so I can take the head off. So far its been fairly easy. Found one stud in the cam tower that the PO had forced on the wrong size nut to keep the cam cover on. I suspect that was one of my oil leaks, so I guess I need to get that stud drilled out and a new one put in and then get the correct nut for it.

What needs to come off before I can take the head off? I'm thinking the whole water pump assembly at the flywheel end, but I really don't know what else to take off. Working on the timing belt end is pretty tight, so its not exactly easy to see what is over there. Any and all advice appreciated. At least I'm learning a few things.

Camshaft. Looking at this picture, it looks like there is supposed to be a pin on the end of the camshaft that lines up with the whole in the pulley.

http://www.midwest-bayless.com/stor...l.aspx?sid=1&sfid=208227&c=193015&i=294607099

Can that pin be drilled and replaced or am I looking at a new camshaft?? I'll go take a pic of the end of my camshaft.

http://www.diamondl.ca/fiat/engine/cam_1.jpg

I'm thinking that a pin should be where that whole is.
 
manifold bolts...

the entire engine was apart about 2 years ago, so I don't expect too much trouble getting bolts/nuts off. So far everything has come off quite easily, haven't had to push hard on anything. But I've got some liquid wrench, so I will go out tonight and give everything I can see a squirt to make it easier tomorrow night. thanks, good tip....
 
why drain oil for head removal? or coolant for that matter, there's a drain cock on the block below the head by the exhaust manifold, in the middle, if it still works, kinda hard to get to, you can drain the coolant from the head through it, or just take a hose off the thermostat housing and let it drain out I guess.
sheared cam pulley pin? sounds bad, on my 1500 there is certainly a pin to align the pulley so if that's gone, the cam and the crank got out of synch, ouch,
sorry for your trouble, getting the head off my 1500 was a PITA (the first time, not too bad after that!)
 
Ugh well I'm sorry this has happened, however the new journey will be a rewarding one costing time more so than money. The knowledge gained will be priceless along the way. It can be done and you can do it if you take your time.

Start soaking all the nuts and studs in penetrating fluid like PB blaster.
 
Pin gone...

WildWilly said:
If there is supposed to be a pin sticking out of the cam shaft, it ain't no more!! Almost looks like something was sheared off. But I really don't know what should be on the end of the cam shaft. Can any of you guys shed some light on that??

I'll go take a pic of the end of my camshaft.

http://www.diamondl.ca/fiat/engine/cam_1.jpg

I'm thinking that a pin should be where that hole is.
Click to expand...

This info gives a better indication of 2 scenarios; the cam pulley pin sheared either because a valve broke & jammed in the head/piston (causing stress on the pulley from the timing belt), or (more likely) the cam pulley bolt was loose, the pulley wobbled while you were driving (explains the rattling noise), the pin finally sheared & the cam/crank timing was then thrown out of synch, causing piston/valve contact (bent or broken valve/s), and here you are. Hopefully the valve(s) are only bent, which would mean less damage to the head &/or pistons from debris banging around inside the cylinder(s).

Best-case scenario; clean up the head with new valves & gaskets, repair or replace cam/pin, replace pulley & timing belt, & you're back in business. :) But looking at your top-side photos, it looks like the #2 cylinder exhaust valve is broken, & the large end of that valve is likely what got slammed into the end of the spark plug. Pull the cylinder head, then go from there.

(PS - it's ok to crop/downsize your photos. No need for mega-pixel ratios, simple 600x800 or slightly bigger works fine.)
 
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