Its not cool to have coolant pipe leaks!

[79X19]

After just getting the brake and clutch systems completely rebuilt and bled with the expert help of MWB and Paul Stoltze I was finally progressing to the point of getting the x back to road worthy. Was filling up the coolant system after installing a Texas heat radiator and low and behold she sprung a leak in one of the tubes. Not just a drip but a piss out the side of the pipe leak. I've had the car sitting now for a little more than two years while working on all the systems that needed refreshing. It ran when parked and did not have any coolant leaks. This must have manifested itself while i was busy with the 100 other items I was working on. I dreaded the thought of replacing these pipes but now my hand is forced. So I dug into it yesterday and here is my progress. The hole was located on the engine side of the coolant pipes on the inside of the pipe just before the last bend in the pipe before it enters the tunnel. I've since removed the pipes completely and can identify the areas where the pipes were failing. The ends of both pipes both engine side and radiator side were corroded to the point of crumbling and the obvious hole were the main areas of damage. The sediment and corrosion build up at the turns in the pipes showed a considerable amount of build up and reduction in internal diameter. In short I was whistling through the graveyard hoping that these pipes would be sound enough after 37 years and unknown service records to be leak free.

Now comes the repair. I am not removing the tunnel. I have decided to perform the repair similarly to how "Ulix" repaired his only I will put beads on the ends of the Stainless Steel pipe runs using an EZ Beading Tool. One bead installed prior to installing the pipe and the other after installation or they wont fit in the tunnel. From there I will have the ends of the pipes bent to fit the curves needed from a local muffler shop. The ends of these pipes will also be beaded. All the materials will be stainless. I will also use the clamps that Bernice recommended, USA style liner worm drive clamps or a single T-bolt clamps, to give the system the best chance of remaining leak free.

The X coolant pipes are 35mm or 1 3/8" O.D. Does anyone have a economical recommended source for 35mm O.D. Stainless pipe in the states? Seems like we have an abundance of 1 1/4" or 1 1/2"

 

[lookforjoe]

I use online metals.com - can't say how economical it is, it is convenient & good quality.

mandrel bends.com is another I've used in the past.

Nice work on the removal - you used a come-a-long attached to the vise grips to extract them?

I used Evans coolant, so no water content. My pipes were clear & non rusted when I got the car from the 1st owner. I'm hoping I don't have to do this anytime soon, but it is pretty much inevitable.

 

[79X19]

Thanks for the recommendations. Yes I attached a comealong to the vice grips and pulled them out in a controlled fashion. They were a bit stubborn and would not come out by twisting them.

 

[RZSR X]

Being that your plan was my original plan until it changed and I ended up removing the tunnel, I would be very interested to see how easily the new SS pipes go through the tunnel. The pipes will need to slide under the 3 brackets and above the hardened material that cradled the bottom side of the old pipes.

And as it turned out with my X it was the heater pipes that were toast along with the connection pipe to heater box so you might want to take a close look at the tunnel heater pipe and connection to box now since to change out that pipe without removing the box could be very difficult and half ass.

 

[Dr.Jeff]

I'm with you on the frustration of these pipes leaking. Both of my X's developed significant leaks after sitting for a few years (prior to my ownership). And on both cars the leaks are within the tunnel. One also has leaks in the heater pipe inside the tunnel. I suspect that leak must have been going on at a slow rate for some time; after pulling up the carpet, the inside floor along the edge of the upper tunnel shows signs of water corrosion at about the same location as the heater pipe leak. I fear there may be a lot more rust happening inside the lower tunnel as well. So I might have to open it up (for rust repairs) rather than pull the pipes out the ends as you did.

The insides of my cooling pipes are pretty ugly like yours, with one car being much worse than the other. I often suspect a build up like this could be the reason some owners experience overheating issues despite installing a new water pump, radiator, hoses, etc. Even with regular maintenance (which is seldom done), pipes as old as on these cars will get that way. Unfortunately cooling system flushes do not do much to remove/prevent all of that crud either. Therefore some owners might think their pipes are in much better condition than they really are.

The pipes on both of mine are well beyond trying to salvage, so I'll be replacing them on both cars. Ironically the car with the better condition pipes (corrosion wise) happens to also have severe physical damage (crushed tubes from hitting things) at the forward sections of the pipes. So the coolant would not have flowed well even if the pipes weren't clogged inside. Probably helps to explain the blown head gasket on the car when I got it.

1 3/8" pipe is an uncommon size, in pretty much all metals. You might find it in 16 gauge S/S exhaust tubing. Try looking for exhaust tube suppliers rather than metal suppliers. Bending S/S tube isn't easy. You may want to have it mandrel bent to your specifications. Or consider buying pre-formed mandrel bent sections and welding them into the shapes needed. Otherwise the resulting bends from a standard muffler shop bender won't be very efficient. Some S/S materials are annealed to make them much easier to roll a bead, bend, cut, etc. That would help but makes it even more difficult (and expensive) to get.

Honestly I'm not looking forward to replacing two sets of coolant pipes. Please keep us informed how it progresses for you.

 

[carl]

Can I ask why everyone wants to replace their pipes with SS pipes? Do you honestly plan to keep your X for the next forty or so years?

 

[kmead]

https://www.verociousmotorsports.com/

In Delaware.

Funny, Carl, I had the exact same question. Though you have to believe that Bertone used a lined tube for them to have lasted as long as they do, impossible to know now.

One has to think that some of these cars will be the last survivors, perhaps those going to extreme lengths will be the ones that make it to the old car museums of the future, if anyone cars enough about cars in the future to have museums full of them.

 

[dllubin]

Can I ask why everyone wants to replace their pipes with SS pipes? Do you honestly plan to keep your X for the next forty or so years?

I would image the fact that they look nice and shiny is a plus with all the time spent under the car. I actually thought the copper pipe idea was pretty cool. Put fins on it and a tunnel fan and you've got a second radiator. Has anyone tried rubber hoses? I've found the rubber hoses on my car have held up better than all the metal pipes.

 

[lookforjoe]

I would image the fact that they look nice and shiny is a plus with all the time spent under the car. I actually thought the copper pipe idea was pretty cool. Put fins on it and a tunnel fan and you've got a second radiator. Has anyone tried rubber hoses? I've found the rubber hoses on my car have held up better than all the metal pipes.

Rubber hose will occupy more space, since the wall thickness will be commensurate with the required ID. I'm gonna go with copper pipe & silver solder junctions when my time comes, I have plenty of experience there

 

[ecohen2]

Can I ask why everyone wants to replace their pipes with SS pipes? Do you honestly plan to keep your X for the next forty or so years?

YES! Actually I just want more shiny bits under my car...

 

[dllubin]

Rubber hose will occupy more space, since the wall thickness will be commensurate with the required ID. I'm gonna go with copper pipe & silver solder junctions when my time comes, I have plenty of experience there

With rubber hose, you might get away with running it outside the tunnel since it is pretty resilient. Keep a roll of duct tape in the trunk just in case.

 

[79X19]

I see the point regarding the material type for the replacement tubes. I could go with copper and it will outlast me for sure. Would be much less than SS and easier to work with. With regards to not removing the tunnel I have no facility that would enable me to get this car up high enough to get under it to drill out 90 or so welds. I just drilled out over 200 welds to repair my windshield surround and I'm not interested in the hassle or expense of doing it again laying flat on my back. I'll figure this out. Probably will come up with a design to get the heater pipe up and out of the way external to the tunnel and retire the old one in place. Sort of bypass surgery Italian style.

 

[dllubin]

I see the point regarding the material type for the replacement tubes. I could go with copper and it will outlast me for sure. Would be much less than SS and easier to work with. With regards to not removing the tunnel I have no facility that would enable me to get this car up high enough to get under it to drill out 90 or so welds. I just drilled out over 200 welds to repair my windshield surround and I'm not interested in the hassle or expense of doing it again laying flat on my back. I'll figure this out. Probably will come up with a design to get the heater pipe up and out of the way external to the tunnel and retire the old one in place. Sort of bypass surgery Italian style.

I seem to recall a thread somewhere in one of these forums that discussed pulling the old pipes and replacing them with copper without removing the tunnel.

 

[Dr.Jeff]

For what it's worth I am not using stainless for mine. But the original post stated that he was, so I responded accordingly.

I bought copper pipes and fittings for considerably less than the cost of S/S. Unfortunately I don't have a lot of experience with sweating joints like Huss does; guess I will when it is done.

Otherwise, if cost were no object, I would prefer stainless due to reduced maintenance compared to even copper. But it is also difficult to work with and requires a bit different equipment.

Regarding removal of the tunnel. The original post states he already got the tubes out without removing the tunnel cover. I would prefer to do it that way but I believe mine needs some rust repair inside the tunnel. We'll see when the time comes. No reason to remove it if it isn't necessary.

 

[Ulix]

I will also use the clamps that Bernice recommended, USA style liner worm drive clamps or a single T-bolt clamps, to give the system the best chance of remaining leak free.

I have since switched from normal hose clamps to these.
Much better!

 

[kmead]

I'm gonna go with copper pipe & silver solder junctions when my time comes, I have plenty of experience there

Ugh. I am on my fourth remodel, I have moved to PEX, which is not appropriate for automotive use. Not going back... It’s a lot of heat on a 1.375” diameter pipe.

One could consider a hybrid, straight stainless tubes with hose transitions (meaning longer lengths of hose at each end) or assembled copper end transitions with a short hose solution (like Ulix’s) between them.

Alternatively going with the premade stainless ones and choosing which end to cut the end off to have a straight section to push through the tunnel with a rubber hose joiner at that end seems like a reasonable approach to not taking the tunnel apart.

 

[carl]

Just a gentle reminder that if the coolant pipes are rusted through then the steel heater pipes probably are too.
The heater box can be accessed by just cutting the bottom horizontal section, leaving the sides in place. This is what I did on my Bertone. Wouldn't be that hard to weld the bottom back on if you wanted to close things up. This was my plan but the thought of lots of welding on my back got me thinking or more fun things to do with my time. Please lets not get into a discussion of structural integrity of the chassis with the box cut, lots of threads elsewhere on that topic.

 

[lookforjoe]

Ugh. I am on my fourth remodel, I have moved to PEX, which is not appropriate for automotive use. Not going back... It’s a lot of heat on a 1.375” diameter pipe.

One could consider a hybrid, straight stainless tubes with hose transitions (meaning longer lengths of hose at each end) or assembled copper end transitions with a short hose solution (like Ulix’s) between them.

Alternatively going with the premade stainless ones and choosing which end to cut the end off to have a straight section to push through the tunnel with a rubber hose joiner at that end seems like a reasonable approach to not taking the tunnel apart.

Ugh. I forgot about the heat transfer component of this. May have to revert to the idea of using SS, at least through the tunnel sections - perhaps with alternate exterior bend sections as you mentioned.

 

[Dr.Jeff]

Karl and Huss, are you referring to heat transfer while doing the joint sweating? I don't have a lot of experience with copper plumbing work, how is that an issue?

 

[rx1900]

After just getting the brake and clutch systems completely rebuilt and bled with the expert help of MWB and Paul Stoltze I was finally progressing to the point of getting the x back to road worthy. Was filling up the coolant system after installing a Texas heat radiator and low and behold she sprung a leak in one of the tubes. Not just a drip but a piss out the side of the pipe leak. I've had the car sitting now for a little more than two years while working on all the systems that needed refreshing. It ran when parked and did not have any coolant leaks. This must have manifested itself while i was busy with the 100 other items I was working on. I dreaded the thought of replacing these pipes but now my hand is forced. So I dug into it yesterday and here is my progress. The hole was located on the engine side of the coolant pipes on the inside of the pipe just before the last bend in the pipe before it enters the tunnel. I've since removed the pipes completely and can identify the areas where the pipes were failing. The ends of both pipes both engine side and radiator side were corroded to the point of crumbling and the obvious hole were the main areas of damage. The sediment and corrosion build up at the turns in the pipes showed a considerable amount of build up and reduction in internal diameter. In short I was whistling through the graveyard hoping that these pipes would be sound enough after 37 years and unknown service records to be leak free.

Now comes the repair. I am not removing the tunnel. I have decided to perform the repair similarly to how "Ulix" repaired his only I will put beads on the ends of the Stainless Steel pipe runs using an EZ Beading Tool. One bead installed prior to installing the pipe and the other after installation or they wont fit in the tunnel. From there I will have the ends of the pipes bent to fit the curves needed from a local muffler shop. The ends of these pipes will also be beaded. All the materials will be stainless. I will also use the clamps that Bernice recommended, USA style liner worm drive clamps or a single T-bolt clamps, to give the system the best chance of remaining leak free.

The X coolant pipes are 35mm or 1 3/8" O.D. Does anyone have a economical recommended source for 35mm O.D. Stainless pipe in the states? Seems like we have an abundance of 1 1/4" or 1 1/2"

Hi 79X19. Sorry for your troubles.

Having investigated this as a possible future project, sadly I can tell you that your proposed solution will not be easy......

Firstly, as you have probably already discovered, finding suitable 1 3/8" OD tubing will not be easy. It is a very oddball size, and will be quite difficult to find. i'm sure it is probably out there somewhere, and you will likely have better luck finding it down there in a major city than up here. Spend a few hours on google and on the phone. Lots of places may list it as an available size, but in reality they have no stock. Yeah, a tubing mill might be able to make it if you order a run of 1000 pieces or so. And if you do find it somewhere, it will likely be quite pricey for the couple of pieces you need. $200 to $300 at least. By the way, I would suggest looking for 409 stainless. Much easier to work with, and will be much cheaper than say 304.

And if you are able to find the tubing - and you will if you look hard enough and are willing to drive far enough and get it - your next challenge will be finding someone able to bend it. I can assure you that your "local muffler shop" will NOT have 1 3/8" dies for their bender. Yeah, if you phone around enough in a major city, you may find someplace with 1 3/8" dies for their bender, but it will most likely be a large production shop who wont be interested in setting up for a one-off job.

And then......beading the ends. As far as I can tell, they dont make an EZ Beader for 1 3/8" OD tube. 1 1/4" and 1 1/2" yes - 1 3/8" no. And even if they did, they are made for use on soft aluminum tube, and will not work on stainless steel of the thickness you will need to use. A beading tool to do the job will cost you $200 to $300 at least.

Even assuming you somehow solve the above hurdles, you will likely have spent a lot and still ended up with a piecemeal solution that is less than ideal. And as others have pointed out, your heater tube is likely in similar poor shape.

And think about what your solution will do to the value of your X. Or even worse, doing a repair with copper pipes that looks like a project from "This Old House".......

I would urge you to at least consider again doing the job right. Pre-made proper stainless pipes ARE available for the X1/9. Search on this forum and you will find them. Yeah, they are a bit pricey, and a pain to install. Even if you dont want to remove all the tunnel spot welds, you could at least slice open the tunnel pretty easily and re-weld it, or get a metal cover made to close it back up.

Good luck. Let us know what you decide to do. Doug