Paging Bernice (ARP question)

autox19

True Classic
I had a question about ARP studs, and thought of you immediately as you seem to be able to explain things in whys I understand.
I got ARP head Studs for my honda b16. The instructions (which I will follow) say the studs are put in finger tight.
My quesiton it why only finger tight when the bolts they replace are in much tighter? My brain cant figure out why you wouldnt want to at least torque them down more than finger tight.

Educate me!!

Odie
 
If you wind them in tight, then undue stresses are placed on the top thread (where the stud screws into the block) and creates a possible failure point...actual torque is applied at the other end, bolt to stud. If you want to mount the studs more permanently then you can loctite them into the block so they don't unwind.

Correct method for stud installation.

1. Clean the threaded holes in the block with a M10/M12 x 1.25 tap (or preferably a thread chaser) and rinse them clean with A GOOD SOLVENT, I use Isopropyl alcohol. (this makes fantastic engine final assembly cleaner) Isopropyl alcohol dries 100% RESIDUE FREE so will not affect the bond strength of the Loctite. (Solvents like brake cleaner, petrol and even acetone will leave a residue that does.)

2. Clean the threaded end of the stud going into the block with isopropyl.

3. Test fit the stud into the internal threads of the block. They must fit and rotate smoothly with uniform friction during this test fit.

4. Remove the stud from the internal threaded block hole.

5. Apply Red Loctite (# 262 or #271) on the threaded end of the stud.

6. Assemble the threaded stud into the block.. hand tighten, not more than 4 INCH POUNDS.

7. Apply some nickel (or silver) based anti-seize sparingly on the entire length of the UN-threaded area of the stud. This will help reduce the corrosion between the cylinder head and stud.

8. Apply the same anti-size or assembly lube on the remaining threaded end of the stud where the cylinder head nut goes. Different lubricants or no lubricant has a very significant effect on the clamp load produced with a given torque setting.

*The Loctite-ing the studs into the block prevents the studs from coming loose. What should never be done is over tightening the studs into the internally threaded holes in the block. This will cause the junction between the threaded and non-threaded area of the stud to crash into the entrance of the internally threaded hole, resulting in a threaded joint failure or at the least damaged threads.

9. Fit the cylinder head with a cheap disposable head gasket (I have a guarnitauto gasket that I use over and over again for this, I would never use this brand for final assembly) and torque the nuts in sequence to about 40lb/ft. Let sit for a few hours so the Loctite can set. This step ensures the newly fitted studs are completely square to the head surfaces while the Loctite sets.

10. Remove the head again and remove the gasket and hang it up for next time... the studs should now be firmly in place and sitting exactly perpendicular to the block face.

11. go about with final assembly when the time is right.

This same method would also be used to set main cap studs into the block.

ARP also recommends applying tension / release several times before final torquing, for all studs / bolts (including their rod bolts when tightened with a torque wrench), The 'friction factor' changes from one cycle to the next. That is, friction is at its highest value when the fastener is first tightened. Each subsequent time the fastener is torqued and loosened, the amount of friction lessens. Eventually the friction levels out and becomes fairly consistent for all following repetitions. This phenomenon is known as preload scatter or preload error. This is basically the difference between the amount of preload achieved on the first installation of the fastener and the amount of preload achieved on subsequent torque/loosen/re-torque cycles.

SteveC
 
Excellent write up Steve, thanks.

Has anyone determined the correct ARP part numbers for adding head studs to the various X engines? ARP does not list the X but the items needed to make up a kit are available from them, just need to know all the correct part numbers. This will be different depending on the year of engine (different fastener sizes). I've come across a couple older references that say "this part number should work but needs to be verified", so I'm hoping by now someone has verified them....and specifically for each application. Thanks
 
I didn't make the connection to my car but I now realize after reading this thread that my motor (out of the ITC racer) has large nuts instead of bolt heads where the headbolts go. It always looked odd but until this thread didn't realize my motor was at some point converted to head studs. Knock on wood the motor runs great and no indication of any head bolt issues so maybe I'll never have to dig further into this. Probably won't do any good but I can take pictures of the nuts/washers if anyone is curious.
 
Steve did a NICE write up on how to properly install studs.
Some further details beginning with *


fiatfactory, post: 286278
If you wind them in tight, then undue stresses are placed on the top thread (where the stud screws into the block) and creates a possible failure point...actual torque is applied at the other end, bolt to stud. If you want to mount the studs more permanently then you can loctite them into the block so they don't unwind.

*Improperly installed studs WILL cause at the least a problem to a serious and fatal threaded joint-part failure.

Correct method for stud installation.

1. Clean the threaded holes in the block with a M10/M12 x 1.25 tap (or preferably a thread chaser)

*Taps used for cleaning out threaded holes should be chosen carefully as proper machine tool world taps are very different than the stuff found at the local hardware store, Horrid Freight and similar thread cutting tools. Proper taps are precision ground from High Speed tool steel, powdered metal technology, solid carbide and brazed insert carbide. There are high quality carbon steel ground thread taps that work well.

Proper machinery taps are graded and made for a specified thread fit per ISO specifications. The fit class designator for "normal clearance" can be 4G, 5G, 6H. Beyond this there is more and less thread fit clearances depending on host part design needs.
https://www.sandvik.coromant.com/en-gb/knowledge/threading/tapping/choice_of_tools/thread_tolerance_class

*
Use a bottoming tap if possible to reach the bottom threads of an internally threaded hole. Most common tap is a Plug or taper tap which is designed to produce new threaded in a drilled hole. The Bottoming tap is designed to reach the last few threads of a threaded blind hole.

and rinse them clean with A GOOD SOLVENT, I use Isopropyl alcohol. (this makes fantastic engine final assembly cleaner) Isopropyl alcohol dries 100% RESIDUE FREE so will not affect the bond strength of the Loctite. (Solvents like brake cleaner, petrol and even acetone will leave a residue that does.)

*Alternatives to Iso Alcohol, Acetone, Brake Cleaner (pricy), Loctite Primer (very pricy). Solvent purity matters, common grades of solvents can have all sorts of impurities that will leave a residue causing other problems. There are Reagent Grade, Electronics Grade and other grades of industrial-lab solvents that have certified purity. The local lab supply house like https://us.vwr.com/store/
will have this stuff.

*Ideally if the internally threaded hole to be cleaned should filled with cleaning solvent. allowed to soak, they flipped upside down to drain, rinse and repeat then blow dry with clean compressed air. Hint, lower air pressure works fine for cleaning out blind internally threaded holes.

2. Clean the threaded end of the stud going into the block with isopropyl.

*Same as above applies to the stud. Know ARP studs are shipped with a thick petro based anticorrosion protective coating, this MUST be removed before installation.

3. Test fit the stud into the internal threads of the block. They must fit and rotate smoothly with uniform friction during this test fit.

4. Remove the stud from the internal threaded block hole.

5. Apply Red Loctite (# 262 or #271) on the threaded end of the stud.

*Using high strength loctite Red or Green Loctite RC609 retaining compound is the way to prevent those studs from working loose under the most stressful conditions.

*The Loctite-ing the studs into the block prevents the studs from coming loose. What should never be done is over tightening the studs into the internally threaded holes in the block. This will cause the junction between the threaded and non-threaded area of the stud to crash into the entrance of the internally threaded hole, resulting in a threaded joint failure or at the least damaged threads.

^Historically in the US machinery world a class 5 interference stud to threaded hole was implemented between threaded hole and stud as the method of retention. This can be done when the design of the parts involved are to be jointed using studs. Since some of the original internally threaded holes in the Fiat block were not specifically designed and produced for studs. This procedure of using Loctite to secure the stud into a threaded hole is mandatory or there will be loose studs when they should stay put.

6. Assemble the threaded stud into the block.. hand tighten, not more than 4 INCH POUNDS.

*This is REALLY important. The common practice when installing studs is to crank them in as tight as possible into the threaded hole. This almost assures crashing the unthreaded area of the stud into the threaded hole entry. This WILL cause cracks and induce a LOT of stress on to that area of the threaded hole and stud producing a high risk of joint failure.

*The other way over tightening a stud into a blind hole causes problems is crashing the end of the stud threads into the bottom of the blind internally threaded hole. Once this happens, the threaded joint is under a LOT of stress, now add more stress by the remainder of the assembly process is a recipe for failure.

*Examples in this .pdf:
http://hhh.gavilan.edu/hspenner/iLe...rocessHardware/InterferenceFitStudsClass5.pdf

7. Apply some nickel (or silver) based anti-seize sparingly on the entire length of the UN-threaded area of the stud. This will help reduce the corrosion between the cylinder head and stud.

*This helps to prevent the dreaded cylinder head stuck on the studs syndrome. Between electrolytic corrosion, casting porosity and more adding a layer anti-seize or corrosion inhibitor like https://www.vannay.com
to the entire length of the stud can make a very significant different when the cylinder head or stud jointed part is disassembled.

Previously discussed:
https://www.vannay.com/index.php?m=4&s=7

8. Apply the same anti-size or assembly lube on the remaining threaded end of the stud where the cylinder head nut goes. Different lubricants or no lubricant has a very significant effect on the clamp load produced with a given torque setting.

Here is that video again illustrating
Torque isn't Tension

9. Fit the cylinder head with a cheap disposable head gasket (I have a guarnitauto gasket that I use over and over again for this, I would never use this brand for final assembly) and torque the nuts in sequence to about 40lb/ft. Let sit for a few hours so the Loctite can set. This step ensures the newly fitted studs are completely square to the head surfaces while the Loctite sets.

*Loctite is an "anaerobic adhesive" or to cure-bond the adhesive the air must be removed. This requires applying enough tension into the threaded joint to drive out any air between the threaded surfaces. If this is not done, the risk of a loose stud during final parts assembly is high.

10. Remove the head again and remove the gasket and hang it up for next time... the studs should now be firmly in place and sitting exactly perpendicular to the block face.

11. go about with final assembly when the time is right.

This same method would also be used to set main cap studs into the block.

ARP also recommends applying tension / release several times before final torquing, for all studs / bolts (including their rod bolts when tightened with a torque wrench), The 'friction factor' changes from one cycle to the next. That is, friction is at its highest value when the fastener is first tightened. Each subsequent time the fastener is torqued and loosened, the amount of friction lessens. Eventually the friction levels out and becomes fairly consistent for all following repetitions. This phenomenon is known as preload scatter or preload error. This is basically the difference between the amount of preload achieved on the first installation of the fastener and the amount of preload achieved on subsequent torque/loosen/re-torque cycles.

*Do follow these ARP recommendations.

** Note on torque wrenches, the precision flat beam torque wrenches are the most accurate rugged-durable for a shop environment. The least accurate are the common micrometer clicker torque wrenches. These can go out of cal easy due to pushing beyond the click and the spring can changing spring designed in spring force if stored at a higher than lowest setting of the torque wrench. There is also a common practice of pushing the clicker torque wrench to click several times to "assure" proper torque. This often results in applying more torque to the joint than set on the torque wrench due to what is effectively an impact wrench effect. If the user is not careful with a clicker torque wrench, over torquing a fastener past it's stretch or yield point can and does happen resulting in significant grief. Using a precision flat beam torque wrench goes a long ways to preventing both of these common problems from occurring by allowing the user to "feel" the amount of torque applied and stopping if the fastener begins to feel soft (up to and past the material yield point) possibly preventing the dreaded broken fastener while being "torqued" syndrome.

*Best of the clicker torque wrenches are made by Stahlwille or Precision Instrument's or similar split beam clicker.


SteveC

*Bernice
 
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Again, I LOVE LOVE LOVE this forum and the people in it.
one of the honda forums recommended slotting the old head bolts as a chaser. After reading this thread, I am more confident in replacing the bolts with studs with my upcoming head gasket replacement.

Odie
 
That video was amazing, I now understand why head bolts for 124 motors are supposed to be lubed before installing. I use slotted head bolts as thread chasers, works much better than using a thread cutting tap which is way too aggressive. It is surprising how much carbon can build up in head bolt threaded holes in the block.
 
Slotting the head of a bolt-screw to be used as a thread cleaner can cause problem due to the the rough edges from grinding. The typical grade 8.8 cap screw-bolt is harder than the cast iron used to make the Fiat block. The modified cap acre-bolt will likely scrap off more of the cast irk than perceived.

If a "cutting tap" is too aggressive, the problem is with the tap. In the initial reply there was reference to tap fit class, this allows the tap to be sized to the threads being cut or cleaned. Taps from the local hardware store or unknown quality taps have no such tolerance control resulting in unpredictable thread cutting. This is why these get a do not use due to their uncontrolled tolerances.

Link to .pdf for tap clearances and fit by North American Tool. It needs to be understood that not all taps are the same an there are MANY variations to what is available and how they should be used.
https://www.natool.com/sites/default/files/public/documents/classes_of_fit_web_catp101-102.pdf

Note the fit tolerances for high quality taps are in the 0.000X".
Precision required to achieve good thread fit is often not appreciated. Those who have cut single threads on a lathe using a single point threading tool will have an appreciation to the degree of precision and tolerances involved with thread cutting. This is understanding of precision most folks who get involved with oily bits might not appreciate or understand how serious and significant tolerances and precision in threads can be.

Unless the tap fit class is at the largest end of the clearance tolerance chart, the typical high quality thread cutting tap is not going to remove excessive metal from the already threaded hole. Machinist use high quality, proper clearance tolerance taps to clean threaded holes quite often.

This idea of using "slotted" cap screws, bolts or thread chasers appears to be a moto wrencher practiced myth that has questionable technical merit.


Bernice


I use slotted head bolts as thread chasers, works much better than using a thread cutting tap which is way too aggressive. It is surprising how much carbon can build up in head bolt threaded holes in the block.
 
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I bought an undersized tap as described by Bernice to chase the threads in the block.
It does work much better than a standard cutting tap.
You can tell right away that it is only cleaning the threads and not removing material as is the case when using a cutting tap.
 
well considering the Honda block (which is what I am changing over to studs) is aluminum, I would say that it would even be worse to use the slotted bolts then. Going to look for the right tap and/or an actual chaser.

Odie
 
I stopped using cutting taps to clear the 124 head bolt holes in the bock because they would jam up, requiring more torque than I was comfortable with (no one needs a broken tap in a head bolt hole. Without knowing the science, it was clear to me a cutting tap was not the way to go. While there is no doubt the proper tap for cleaning existing threads is the way to go, a slotted head bolt as always worked for me with no occurrences of blown head gaskets on 124 motors I have put together. Oddly, I have never done a SOHC head so I can't say how that would go. Most of us here are DIY or hobby level wrenches on our Fiats and buying specialty tools don't always make sense.
 
If a tap jams up cleaning out a threaded hole, the tap should be given the ocean float test. If it fails, that tap can revert back to the iron oxide and other elements of it's origin.

High quality taps are not expensive, these are purchased from places like ebay by the box of 12 for about $1-2 each. If ya like, I'll be happy to send you a set of common sizes used on Fiat which is M5x0.8, M6x1.0, M8x1.25, M10x1.25, M12x1.25, I'll even add in the other two common metric sizes of M10x1.5 and M12x1.75 which is used on many other metric thread centric oily bits.

Do use the correct cutting oil or fluid when applying any tap into a hole threaded or not threaded. The amount of friction involved is not small regardless. Once the tap has done it's job, clean out the threaded hole as needed.

Most often items that results in broken taps or internally threaded hole disasters:

*Horrid quality taps.

*Using the wrong tap for the required internally threaded hole.

*Drilling the wrong size hole for a given tap size.

*Crocked hole drilled to be tapped.. This one is extremely common. The correct way is to used a tap guide in a milling machine, drill press or tapping stand or tap guide to assure the tap is 90 degrees to the hole to be threaded. >A tap guide can be nothing more than a block of known flat metal with tap clearance hole drilled into it at 90 degrees. These can be purchased or easily made with a milling machine, lathe or drill press<

*Cleaning out a threaded hole with a high quality tap, with failure to properly engage the existing start thread. This assures cutting cross threads and likely completely out of alignment too.

*Not using proper lubricant during the tapping process.

*On non sprial flute taps, failure to reverse the tap once every full turn or so to break chip loading that is a given for straight flute taps.

*Continued tap driving even when there is increased torque required to drive the tap. This one will assure tap breakage with a tearful or exploitive expression upon the snapping off of the tap into the hole.

*Taps like all cutting tools, wear out. Once worn, they must be taken out of service and recycled. Dull cutting tools are horrid-awful and destructive in many, many ways.

Hobbyist or "Pro" know the rules and procedures before try. Once the rules and requirements are well practiced and well understood, that is when the rules and procedures can be bent as needed.


Bernice
 
GREAT advice and top video, Bernice!!
This info should be mandatory reading/viewing for all Engineering Polytechnics/Schools world-wide!!

cheers (many): IanL - NZ
 
We should add some of this info to the Wiki somehow. I skimmed through most of it and will reread it when installing my head stud kit. Maybe SteveC could add some of new details to his Ultimate SOHC thread that would benefit from a quick look up. I also do not see thread tags on this thread. Would that improve future searching?
 
when installing my head stud kit
Please let me know what part numbers you use for your stud kit. Also which head you are doing. I'm still trying to find the correct pieces for the X engine, as ARP does not list it specifically for this application. When I tried to discuss it with them at SEMA they weren't very interested and did not offer any help. SEMA was intended for this very purpose of interacting with vendors for product information, but its turned into more of a car show than a business opportunity.
 
Another question. I have the ARP thread cleaning chaser. do I use any lubricant when using the chaser?

Odie
 
Please let me know what part numbers you use for your stud kit..

found in Chapter 10. Crankshafts, Flywheels and Fasteners.


ARP M10 head studs.
LONG: ARP AM4.500-1LB stud. 4.500" overall length, M10 x 1.25 threads at both ends, hex at nut end for installation, engaged legth approx 0.900", nut thread length approx 1.000"
SHORT: ARP AM4.250-1LB stud. 4.250" overall length, M10 x 1.25 thread at both ends, hex at nut end for installation, engaged length approx 0.900", nut thread approx 1.000"

Use with:

NUTS: ARP 301-8352 M10 x 1.25 12 point (16mm wrench) (pack10)
WASHERS: ARP 200-8592 hardened washer M10 (pack 10)
BUSHES: ARP 200-8598 Stepped insert bush (pk10)

Odie, I use kerosene when chasing the holes to begin with, keep winding the chaser up and down until no more dirt comes out... then blow the holes dry with compressed air covering it with a rag...repeat with more clean kerosene... finally do the same thing with iso propyl alcohol, pour it down the threaded holes and wind the chaser in and out, and again blow out with compressed air (covered with a rag) until the rag stops getting dirt stains ...then you know it's clean.

SteveC
 
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