Rally X1/9 - Prototipo style

[NigelProdrive]

I edited my post above to include more while you replied. Maybe including there is lots more stuff and people in the car in rally than in hillclimb.

Competed in more events as codriver than driver. RX7s, GTX, factory team Protege, factory team MazdaSpeedy3, VW Golfs, Audi Quattros, Ford Focus, factory team Honda, Mitsubishi Evos, factory team Subaru STis, and a GrA Integrale which is rare opportunity here. But also owned a motorsport fabrication shop.

Even not 1000 Lakes there will be airtime unless you are very slow.

 

[Marti80]

Nice selection of cars and air shots!

Point is noted on there being more things to carry for rallying, there is underbonnet and underbootlid areas to utilise which might need to be inventive over

It is a good point to note on handling/durability side. I will be testing to get the handling set up in due course but expecting a compromise that doesn't wipe out the front underside (although the overhang is quite small)

I need to research tethering so the dampers don't destroy themselves when we get airborne.

I am not sure how competitive we will be, all I can say is that my satisfaction comes when from knowing that I am at the limit of either me or the car. The entry is half homage half serious, hence my desire to retain some lineage to factory cars even if it means we are slightly less competitive.

Typically in the 1600 class we would be up against 205's, Novas, maybe Corollas, the odd Escort. At the sharp end of the field are 6R4's and Escorts with Millington Diamond engines so we definitely not going to be challenging the bigger boys.

 

[Marti80]

Sorry to read about Craig, a reminder how dangerous the sport can be

 

[rachaeljf]

My engine arrived, looks good condition, not much corrosion and the alloy components are pretty fresh. It is also low milage. Already stripped it down getting the head ready for new valves etc

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That looks very clean! Where did you source your 182 engine?

 

[Steve Thomas]

clearance issues with the cage, there are umpteen competition X19s in use,

Really interested to see how. Maybe with a full race bare minimum seat and a shortish person? I think some ran in the Targa Tasmania too so there must be an "acceptable" solution. Any pics anybody?

 

[Steve Thomas]

Or look at what Fiat choose to run in rally; a much larger 131

That was pure marketing politics. And an early part of the overall drift [I'm here all week, try the shrimp] toward using mass market sedans. Frankly, I would rather have a big accident in an X1/9 over a 131. And making a rally 131 is no small task either as they are very, very different from the production car etc.

 

[Steve Thomas]

limit of either me

One of the things I love about the X1/9 - I can be on my limit well before the car and in general, it means you can drive at 10/10ths all the time.

 

[NigelProdrive]

That was pure marketing politics. And an early part of the overall drift [I'm here all week, try the shrimp] toward using mass market sedans. Frankly, I would rather have a big accident in an X1/9 over a 131. And making a rally 131 is no small task either as they are very, very different from the production

Politics taking the funding from Lancia which was still winning championships with the Stratos to try to sell Fiats.

Sedans do well in rally (Saab 96, Ford Escorts, Audi Quattro, Lancia Integrale, Mitsubishi Evos and Galant, Impreza (they ran 4 doors and not the 22B 2 doors), and the current crop). Much more popular than sportscars (Alpine, Stratos, 037, RS200 are about it) . Being inside one with all the gear required for rally (spare, jack, toolkit, warning triangles, first aid kit, spill kit,...already filling everywhere else) is way better than driving the transits with your coats and helmets in your laps. Also the taller body offers more suspension travel. Hillclimbs can be more smooth but rally events try to choose technical roads that include crests and yumps.

Sedan has space inside for mainhoop and rear supports and crosstubes galore. X does not. You’ll probably get by with some historic passport waiver but modern rallycage in a X a average size person wouldn’t be able to get in with the halo racing seats.

Have rolled 5 different times. Been off a mountainside. Over a ravine. Whacked a tree 5 foot off the ground. Kartwheeled. On the side twice.

This A pillar collapsed to near X lines. What would it have collapsed to if it started as a X?

Had the cage partially collapse. Have to extract ourselves inverted with helmets and HANS with doors blocked by trees and embankment without any outside help (your are in a forest, not a track with corner workers) when the car could have caught fire. You need space to drop out of the seat, get turned around right side up, all with helmet and Hans and fixed seats).

Tarmac rallies aren’t so rough but if you crash you could be rolling on unforgiving hard tarmac.

I’ll choose the larger car in an accident every time. Crumple zones and exit space.

 

[Marti80]

no surprise - the Prototipos were [surprise!] prototypes, were not developed and had a very poor competition history. The snorkel is somebodies best guess and the cars had other more serious problems anyway.

The factory had 2 years worth of development and were confident enough to want to homologate it in Group 4 spec, and that's from a team use to winning. It set fastest times and is said to have been easier to drive than the Stratos

All the DNFs they had related to engine failure or gearbox which I find curious because the engine is obviously strong so have to assume cooling related.

It does remain a huge 'what if' they had homologated it. You could have run a car today in historic homologation spec making it a far more attractive package.

 

[Marti80]

Politics taking the funding from Lancia which was still winning championships with the Stratos to try to sell Fiats.

Sedans do well in rally (Saab 96, Ford Escorts, Audi Quattro, Lancia Integrale, Mitsubishi Evos and Galant, Impreza (they ran 4 doors and not the 22B 2 doors), and the current crop). Much more popular than sportscars (Alpine, Stratos, 037, RS200 are about it) . Being inside one with all the gear required for rally (spare, jack, toolkit, warning triangles, first aid kit, spill kit,...already filling everywhere else) is way better than driving the transits with your coats and helmets in your laps. Also the taller body offers more suspension travel. Hillclimbs can be more smooth but rally events try to choose technical roads that include crests and yumps.

Sedan has space inside for mainhoop and rear supports and crosstubes galore. X does not. You’ll probably get by with some historic passport waiver but modern rallycage in a X a average size person wouldn’t be able to get in with the halo racing seats.

View attachment 72458

Have rolled 5 different times. Been off a mountainside. Over a ravine. Whacked a tree 5 foot off the ground. Kartwheeled. On the side twice.

View attachment 72459

View attachment 72460

This A pillar collapsed to near X lines. What would it have collapsed to if it started as a X?

View attachment 72461

View attachment 72462

View attachment 72463

Had the cage partially collapse. Have to extract ourselves inverted with helmets and HANS with doors blocked by trees and embankment without any outside help (your are in a forest, not a track with corner workers) when the car could have caught fire. You need space to drop out of the seat, get turned around right side up, all with helmet and Hans and fixed seats).

Tarmac rallies aren’t so rough but if you crash you could be rolling on unforgiving hard tarmac.

I’ll choose the larger car in an accident every time. Crumple zones and exit space.

There is always the possibility of rolling a car, an X is smaller but I am not building it based on how well it will perform in an accident. It will be built to be safe should I have one.

There is quite a difference between forest and tarmac, Group A 4WD and Group 4 2WD.

 

[Marti80]

That looks very clean! Where did you source your 182 engine?

It came from Spain B-Parts. It's in really good condition compared to the equivalent UK engine given the sunny climate. Different to find these in the UK

 

[Marti80]

That was pure marketing politics. And an early part of the overall drift [I'm here all week, try the shrimp] toward using mass market sedans. Frankly, I would rather have a big accident in an X1/9 over a 131. And making a rally 131 is no small task either as they are very, very different from the production car etc.

Cost of a rally 131 is at least as much as an Escort. There is a nice group 4 recreation for sale presently at a bargain £130k - and I am not being cynical. That example has the period correct 16v head also. Looks very good value

 

[Steve Thomas]

period correct

and the rear suspension? Etc ?

 

[Steve Thomas]

Sedans do well in rally

of course they do - that was my point. The manufacturers focused on sedans so sedans are developed and do well. If they had chosen wagons or vans or donkey carts they would have done well too. Self fulfilling prophesy

 

[Marti80]

and the rear suspension? Etc ?

I believe they ran different hubs which are practically unobtainable so some things will have to be different. I also have to get the car to the minimum weight so that will necessitate some changes. But the aim is to keep it close in looks and retain lineage

 

[NigelProdrive]

There is quite a difference between forest and tarmac, Group A 4WD and Group 4 2WD.

Won regional, national and international 2WD championships before and after the AWD open class ones. I get it.

So do you want to rally or just spend time and $ building an intensive projectcar without availability of many of the rally specific parts to be non-competitive and then spend more in DNFs and sorting it and be able to walk away financially if wreaked on first corner (seen it happen)? If you haven't rallied yet best advise is always buy and start with a logbooked sorted rallycar before attempting to build one.

Enjoy a ride with Craig in an Escort. Starts slow in the wet but gets going as dries out and the stage changes character multiple times. Pay attention to be bumps near end. Worth watching entire vid.

What suspension are you going to use to raise the X for suspension travel in front and that has the capacity to not overheat damping fluids or blow considering this is smooth?

 

[NigelProdrive]

of course they do - that was my point. The manufacturers focused on sedans so sedans are developed and do well. If they had chosen wagons or vans or donkey carts they would have done well too. Self fulfilling prophesy

Manufacturers focus on winning. And choose the bodytype that performs best, except for Fiat when they defunded Stratos. Mercedes, Ferrari, Maclaren F1 teams spend $$$ not to market sedans. Sedans are suited for stage rally.

 

[Marti80]

Won regional, national and international 2WD championships before and after the AWD open class ones. I get it.

So do you want to rally or just spend time and $ building an intensive projectcar without availability of many of the rally specific parts to be non-competitive and then spend more in DNFs and sorting it and be able to walk away financially if wreaked on first corner (seen it happen)? If you haven't rallied yet best advise is always buy and start with a logbooked sorted rallycar before attempting to build one.

Enjoy a ride with Craig in an Escort. Starts slow in the wet but gets going as dries out and the stage changes character multiple times. Pay attention to be bumps near end. Worth watching entire vid.

What suspension are you going to use to raise the X for suspension travel in front and that has the capacity to not overheat damping fluids or blow considering this is smooth?

The intention is to go rallying with the car I am building and tick both boxes. I will have to see how competitive I get with it. I have a few target events which are 2-3 day events. Plan is to start on single day single venue events to help test the car in advance. Prior to that engine testing / set up and some track work to see how temps hold up

I am considering damper options, gaz and Leda both are respected suppliers, both can be rebuilt. At this point I am thinking Leda as they are steel bodied and possibly stronger although likely heavier than gaz. You will see plenty gaz on mk2's

If the front suspension travel/volume got to be an issue the fix would exactly what manufacturers do, extend the strut tops and fit longer dampers. Lancia did it with the Integrale and the metro has a shaped bonnet to accommodate it.

Tops of the strut towers will be reinforced with additional plating as a start

 

[Marti80]

Won regional, national and international 2WD championships before and after the AWD open class ones. I get it.

So do you want to rally or just spend time and $ building an intensive projectcar without availability of many of the rally specific parts to be non-competitive and then spend more in DNFs and sorting it and be able to walk away financially if wreaked on first corner (seen it happen)? If you haven't rallied yet best advise is always buy and start with a logbooked sorted rallycar before attempting to build one.

Enjoy a ride with Craig in an Escort. Starts slow in the wet but gets going as dries out and the stage changes character multiple times. Pay attention to be bumps near end. Worth watching entire vid.

What suspension are you going to use to raise the X for suspension travel in front and that has the capacity to not overheat damping fluids or blow considering this is smooth?

Nice video, a little like a brisk Sunday drive lol!

These are the sorts of roads that I am use to driving on. I would be expecting a good run along these types of stages in my X.

I do fancy some Irish stages as they love their rallying.

 

[Marti80]

I am more concerned about brakes than suspension tbh and getting some weight over the front. That and getting weight transfer to the front. I know I can build sufficiently durable brakes but getting the braking force is the challenge for mid engine